IMO, the question is one of integrity. Can a person who is receiving financial reward for product sales trust themselves/be trusted by others to have an impartial, objective perspective? If I see a physician, I expect him/her to prescribe the medication that will be best for ME, because I am hiring him to do so, not because he might receive a kickback of some kind. If I am hiring a trainer, then that person is working for me when I am being instructed. If they are also being paid by someone else at the same time (saddle company, etc…), then IMO there is a conflict of interest. This is not to say that there are not some trainers who are perfectly capable of giving disinterested advice. However, for the others, it becomes a question of integrity. If I can’t trust someone on something as simple as the choice of a piece of equipment, do I wish to entrust my child’s training to them?
For me, I guess the biggest factor (and testimonial) would be if the trainer bought that saddle brand (or wore certain breeches or a certain brand of helmet) BEFORE getting sponsored by the company. If they thought so much about the product to buy it first at retail and then ended up either contacting the company or being contact BY the company to wave the brand flag and become a sponsored rider, then I would take more credibility to that.
If said trainer just started promoting any brand that would give them something for free, then I consider them a “paid shill” and don’t really trust their judgement a whole lot.
Though like someone mentioned earlier, if you ride at a place with a tack room full of a certain brand of saddle and/or a connection with easy access to a line of saddles, it does make trials and demos much much easier. Most people want to buy what they already know and like. (I guess that also goes for having a brand’s tent up at a show where you could actually try out different saddles in the line on your horse. Might be cheaper in the long run rather than paying shipping charges and trial fees trying to find the right fit via long-distance)
[QUOTE=Inclined;8680754]
If they are also being paid by someone else at the same time (saddle company, etc…), then IMO there is a conflict of interest. This is not to say that there are not some trainers who are perfectly capable of giving disinterested advice. However, for the others, it becomes a question of integrity. If I can’t trust someone on something as simple as the choice of a piece of equipment, do I wish to entrust my child’s training to them?[/QUOTE]
Being paid by someone else does not preclude a trainer from doing their best for another student. Unless you hire a trainer exclusively for you/your child, he/she is going to need to make money elsewhere. That doesn’t mean that trainer is shafting kid A’s training because kids B, C, and D are all on the circuit too. Trainers/barn owners/vets and farriers all have to make a living too.
It is the consumer’s job to educate themselves. See an independent fitter. If horse or rider go worse in Brand, send it back after the trial.
[QUOTE=RugBug;8680316]
I actually don’t think it’s transparent at all. When a rider/parent is told “you/your child will ride better in this saddle” without having done any fitting, etc…it’s kind of skeezy. Nice saddles are nice for a reason, but not every nice saddle fits every rider…or every horse. When someone is led to believe it will improve riding…there may be some truth in that…but there may not be.
Truthfully, you want to improve riding, get everyone a PdN or similarly flat saddle. (the horse might not appreciate that, though)[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. Many parents and riders put complete trust in the trainer. Often they don’t have a lot of experience or information about how the industry ‘works’. So there is most definitely opportunity for trainer to exploit clients.
I think at the end of the day it comes down to professionalism of the trainer, and their willingness to be transparent about the arrangement, and their willingness to steer a client to something else if they know what is being offered through the sponsorship arrangement won’t work.
[QUOTE=amm2cd;8681233]
Being paid by someone else does not preclude a trainer from doing their best for another student. Unless you hire a trainer exclusively for you/your child, he/she is going to need to make money elsewhere. That doesn’t mean that trainer is shafting kid A’s training because kids B, C, and D are all on the circuit too. Trainers/barn owners/vets and farriers all have to make a living too.
It is the consumer’s job to educate themselves. See an independent fitter. If horse or rider go worse in Brand, send it back after the trial.[/QUOTE]
It is absolutely the consumer’s job to educate themselves, and I believe that applies to the choice of the trainer as well as the saddle. Again, as long as the trainer/vet/farrier is capable of giving disinterested advice, all parties can benefit from the relationship. If the professional in question cannot render objective advice, the rider/parent had best look elsewhere.
[QUOTE=Inclined;8681643]
It is absolutely the consumer’s job to educate themselves, and I believe that applies to the choice of the trainer as well as the saddle. Again, as long as the trainer/vet/farrier is capable of giving disinterested advice, all parties can benefit from the relationship. If the professional in question cannot render objective advice, the rider/parent had best look elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Much easier said than done, especially in areas where there really isn’t a lot of choice or where the trainer’s program is very well known.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8679969]
The trainer also encourages the riders to improve and start showing and leasing and buying horses, which also puts money in the trainer’s pocket.
I guess since I realize that some trainers get a deal on saddles for selling them I am not near as tied in a knot about the topic as you are… though you knew so why exactly are you acting like it is a big dark secret that no one told you and took advantage of you with.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between a trainer encouraging a client to be more involved (more lessons, leasing, showing, buying etc) and a trainer promoting products. It is assumed that a client will understand that a trainer wants to sell more of their services. Not every client will be aware that that a trainer has a relationship with a saddler.
Experienced clients/horse owners are less likely to fall to the pressure of a trainer promoting a brand. The less well informed fall for the pitch, spend $4k on a saddle to fit the horse they are leasing from the trainer only to be told at the end of the lease that saddle doesn’t fit any other horse in the barn.
We wonder why people don’t remain involved in the sport but they shrug and think “they should have known” when people get ripped off. Newbie clients are told to put all their faith in the trainer and then when the trainer doesn’t disclose outside relationships. Finally they say enough and stop sending Susie for lessons and then the same trainer badmouths them on social media. No wonder so many folks get out, the learning curve is VERY steep.
I guess I can play devils advocate from a different perspective. I ride in a specific saddle because I like it, I like the way it fits me. I like the way I ride in it. I like the way it fits my own horses. And I like the way it fits the other horses I ride. I thoroughly enjoy the company, their representatives, and the technology behind the saddles. Therefore, I recommend this saddle company to my clients.
Yes, I get a money I can spend on the company’s other tack (saddles, bridles, boots, whatever I choose) when a client purchases. BUT I advise because that is the saddle company I believe in. I get a representative that comes at the drop of a hat. A representative that comes to watch my kids ride in their purchased saddle if they are not happy and take it back for changes. I get a representative to spend hours at my barn playing musical saddles for my clients to piece together their favorite fit (which flap, what seat, what leather).
I see no difference in a trainer recommending a specific saddle (if there are commissions for the trainer or not) and a trainer recommending you ride in a Samshield and Parlantis in the equitation ring. Or a trainer recommending a specific supplement or farrier or vet to use. Just my opinion 
[QUOTE=lindsay.anne;8682036]
I guess I can play devils advocate from a different perspective. I ride in a specific saddle because I like it, I like the way it fits me. I like the way I ride in it. I like the way it fits my own horses. And I like the way it fits the other horses I ride. I thoroughly enjoy the company, their representatives, and the technology behind the saddles. Therefore, I recommend this saddle company to my clients.
Yes, I get a money I can spend on the company’s other tack (saddles, bridles, boots, whatever I choose) when a client purchases. BUT I advise because that is the saddle company I believe in. I get a representative that comes at the drop of a hat. A representative that comes to watch my kids ride in their purchased saddle if they are not happy and take it back for changes. I get a representative to spend hours at my barn playing musical saddles for my clients to piece together their favorite fit (which flap, what seat, what leather).
I see no difference in a trainer recommending a specific saddle (if there are commissions for the trainer or not) and a trainer recommending you ride in a Samshield and Parlantis in the equitation ring. Or a trainer recommending a specific supplement or farrier or vet to use. Just my opinion :)[/QUOTE]
A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE LINKED TO SALES is the major difference
Trainers recommend brands all the time but when a trainer has a financial incentive to do so, it alters the relationship. If you know that your trainer is sponsored (and thus likely to have financial stake in you buying their brand) then you would be wise to fully research and purchase of that brand. Learn about fit for horse and rider, learn about signs of discomfort in the horse, assess your position and your horse’s reaction to it. Be skeptical and discerning.
Sounds easy but for the newer rider/client it’s not. Newbies come here and are told to “trust the trainer” so they do. Client is told that if Susie wants to move up to X division, they need to have a Y saddle. “Anything less looks pretty cheap
at the in-gate at Big Name Show.” When Susie grows 6 inches in a year and the $$$ saddle doesn’t work, it’s time to trade up!
There are some advantages to a sponsored trainer. You can usually get a rep out quickly. If you want to buy used, they can more often get exactly what you need. If you have a problem, you can get it solved faster. None of that means much when you didn’t need to buy a $4k saddle in the first place.
And then there is the case where the rider really needs help finding the “right” saddle.
Sometimes, a rider will have an extremely “hard to fit” horse. That was my case with my 17’2 hand “knife withers” horse. I tried literally dozens of saddles and none of them fit. Sometimes I thought we were on the right track with a certain saddle but within days, he would stop going forward, throw his head and be sore in his back.
My trainer worked with CWD so she had the rep come out. He looked at my horses back, and sighed. Then he opened up his truck and brought out saddle after saddle after saddle. Over a period of hours, he figured out what the fit needed to be in order to make both my horse and me comfortable. And it worked.
So in this case, I’m glad my trainer made that recommendation as I most likely would not have gone there on my own. I just wasn’t that familiar with the brand and how each of their saddles really were custom made to each horse.
Now not everyone has the fitting issues that I did. But it was a real blessing and we are happily riding all the time now. No more sore horse !
If people come in saddle shopping and they mention their trainer rides in XYZ I always suggest they get an independent saddle fitter look at the saddle before they buy – especially spending $5k or more on a new french saddle. Too many people have come in needing to get all of these pads to make their new saddle fit.
[QUOTE=Kalele;8682192]
If people come in saddle shopping and they mention their trainer rides in XYZ I always suggest they get an independent saddle fitter look at the saddle before they buy – especially spending $5k or more on a new french saddle. Too many people have come in needing to get all of these pads to make their new saddle fit.[/QUOTE]
I use a saddle fitter who doesn’t sell saddles. I have a bit of a “problem” with saddles (I like to buy them 
) so he’s always looking at different brands for me. I would be very skeptical about buying a saddle from a rep for two reasons 1) they have a financial incentive to sell me that saddle and 2) many of them aren’t very good at fitting saddles.
The big problem is that it’s very hard to find a good independent saddle fitter and many people (including trainers) don’t know enough about saddle fit to make a good recommendation.
I had several saddle fitters look at my horse and had me try different brands and styles and nothing worked. My horse was still sore. I got lucky with the CWD. Although even with it custom made for my horse, it still took a few visits from the rep to adjust it to my horse. we live a couple of hours north of Los Angeles and I must say, the rep willingly drove up here to figure out how to make the saddle fit him. If fits wonderfully now and I’m glad I went there!
With full disclosure we could make a guess at which posters were trainers,
clients, or independents.
I don’t have a problem with trainers being involved with the arranging of appointments, fitting and selection of custom saddles and then taking a commission. However, I do think that it is important that the clients know that there was a commission.
I think most people who are not new to the industry understand that if your trainer is sponsored by saddle brand X and you buy a saddle through the trainer (and the rep of that brand) there is going to be a “commission” of some type. Also, I think that many people who are not new to the industry know that they have the option of working independently to buy a saddle and also have the self-awareness to know if that is a good option for them or not (it might be a big investment of time and there’s some risk if you don’t know what you are doing and inadvertently choose a bad fitter/rep).
I think this whole situation is more of an issue when someone new to the h/j world doesn’t understand how it works and feels like they were given bad advice (buy a saddle for a short term lease or a horse they are about to sell) or told to buy something unnecessarily expensive to earn their trainer a commission or kickback.
[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8678838]
Yes, I do understand sponsorship and I agree that is a great thing. My question was a bit more pointed than that. I am talking about trainers getting paid to advise you to go into a shop and buy a specific saddle… I think there is a distinction between a transparent sponsorship and the a trainer pushing you to buy a saddle so they can make a kick-back ?[/QUOTE]
There is good and bad in every industry. You just have to wear tall enough boots to wade through all the nonsense.
[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8680139]
Yes, thank you that is my point. Most people believe that their trainers use the saddles because the trainer believes they are the best saddle. Really? Do they also know that their trainer is on a “payola” scheme with certain brand saddles that compensates them in some way for every saddle sold to their barn and students. I would think that if this was transparent, people would think a bit differently.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Many trainers do support a particular saddle or a few brands because they are good saddles.
I have ridden at a few big trainer barns and they usually have a brand or two that dons the walls of the tack room. These are reputable trainers and reputable saddle makers.
Some things it sounds you may need to watch for - who is this trainer? What is their reputation in the horse world? Is the saddle a well made product? Etc. You must investigate to find out if this saddle first fits the horse and of course the rider. And I will say a saddle can make a big difference so I wouldn’t disregard what the trainer may be saying.
As far as a younger rider - wouldn’t they need the finances from their guardians to purchase such an investment?
It seems to me that you are working to investigate this situation and you are not getting the answers you would like on this BB because you are not able to really give full disclosure of your situation such as the trainer and the brand of saddle. Further, do you have full blown evidence that the purchase of a new saddle for your child will result in a payment to the trainer? Did the trainer not disclose this to you? If you heard it from the grapevine then is it true or is the trainer being deceptive?
[QUOTE=Linda;8682183]
So in this case, I’m glad my trainer made that recommendation as I most likely would not have gone there on my own. I just wasn’t that familiar with the brand and how each of their saddles really were custom made to each horse.
![/QUOTE]
I had a similar experience trying to fit my TB and ended up with a Delgrange. I’m glad you found something that worked for your horse, but I just wanted to note that CWDs are NOT custom made to each horse. They are configured to each horse but they are not fully custom saddles. A true custom saddle starts from the tree. CWD, Delgrange, etc give you the ability to choose certain options and configure panels, but they are not true custom saddles when it gets right down to it. It’s like the difference of having a dress designed and made for you vs. having one tailored to fit.
[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8680580]
Not as a salesperson. The point is that they are not salespeople. They get saddles or compensation not for selling a saddle, which is a transparent transaction. They get money buy “pushing” their students to ride in a certain saddle. Parents think that this is done because it will the student etc. but no it is done because the trainer is getting a kickback from the saddle company. It is all behind the scenes…[/QUOTE]
Do you have evidence of this? If you do then it would be illegal unless the saddle company and the trainer disclose this transaction on their taxes.
