DO TRAINERS GETTING PAID BY SADDLE COMPANIES TO BUY THEIR SADDLE BOTHER YOU ?

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;8682853]
Do you have evidence of this? If you do then it would be illegal unless the saddle company and the trainer disclose this transaction on their taxes.[/QUOTE]

The deal? Yes.
Any trainers financials ? No

That is about it for me. I am not interested in getting anyone in trouble.
Trainers are great… It is the “payola” deal from certain saddle companies that bothers me.

I just posted to see what others felt about his situation and if they were even aware that it was going on.

I appreciate the varied responses…

[vxf111]

On a similar note, I am tired of every instagram for the 14 and under riding set including over-the-top promotions of brands and sponsorship. I find it really distasteful that PONY RIDERS are now “brand ambassadors” and are being used to shill goods. They’re not even old enough to sign a contract, and someone is using them for promotion. I hate the over commercialization of riding and I personally am not interested in buying any brand that promotes it’s goods this way. Pro adult riders is a little bit of a different story to me (though I still get annoyed by the heavy-handed promotion at times)-- but I should not click on a link to a picture of local kid riding at a schooling show and be told all about some discount code for the breeches that sponsor her. I just don’t like it.

[scrbear11]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8678908]
More specifically the deal they get is that if they get a certain number of saddles sold, as in to their students, they get to keep the saddle free, if not the saddle goes back or they own money on. That is how the contract is written… Essentially a pay-o-la scheme…[/QUOTE]

You are referencing CWD specifically here. Hah. I know how a certain trainer’s “sponsorship” agreement is written. Let’s just say she still doesn’t own a CWD.

[Mia_Sorella]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;8682833]
There is good and bad in every industry. You just have to wear tall enough boots to wade through all the nonsense.[/QUOTE]

I like to do a little test with saddle sellers/fitters. I’ll research their products and price ranges ahead of time, then during the course of the fitting I ask them to recommend what they think is the best saddle for my horse if budget was no object. If they immediately jump to their most expensive saddle and can’t give me an explanation for their choice beyond “omg this is a really nice saddle, you’ll just love it”, then I know I need to be taking their recommendations with a grain salt.

[DMK]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8679844]
Thanks for response. No not a trainer trust issue that I have. Just the ethics of this “payola” scheme.

I am not talking about true sponsorships, they are great and important to the industry.
I am not talking about saddle fitters or well intentioned trainers trying to help the student.
What this is about is certain saddle companies “paying” trainers to take advantage of their students in either direct or not so direct way, meaning just the power of their influence.
From the jest of the posts it seems ok, as in either oh well the trainers are just trying to make money (at the expense of there students and unknowing parents) - or gee that is just the cost of playing in this game - write the check or get out !
So I am just curious how others and parents feel about this disease as it spreads through out the horse word.[/QUOTE]

I’m confused about who you think is to blame for this, because it sounds a lot like you blame the saddle companies? You trust your trainer, but you think saddle companies are at fault for this highly misused term you use, payola? Do I have this right?

If I do, well that’s just … odd.

Saddle companies are in the business of selling their goods. More power to them. If they want to pay commissions to ANYONE who aids them. more power t them.

A trainer can help a client find a good saddle. A moderately ethical trainer would disclose any financial aspect to the deal. That your trainer appears not to have disclosed this in advance (or has done this, but you still don’t like it) is just not the saddle fitter/representative/company’s fault. If your trainer did not disclose this and you don’t have a trust issue, well I just don’t know what to think about that. If they did disclose and you are still annoyed, I guess unless you want to find a trainer who promises they won’t get in such a relationship, then sux 2 b u.

[PROTACKGUY]

[QUOTE=DMK;8684265]
I’m confused about who you think is to blame for this, because it sounds a lot like you blame the saddle companies? You trust your trainer, but you think saddle companies are at fault for this highly misused term you use, payola? Do I have this right?

If I do, well that’s just … odd.

Saddle companies are in the business of selling their goods. More power to them. If they want to pay commissions to ANYONE who aids them. more power t them.

A trainer can help a client find a good saddle. A moderately ethical trainer would disclose any financial aspect to the deal. That your trainer appears not to have disclosed this in advance (or has done this, but you still don’t like it) is just not the saddle fitter/representative/company’s fault. If your trainer did not disclose this and you don’t have a trust issue, well I just don’t know what to think about that. If they did disclose and you are still annoyed, I guess unless you want to find a trainer who promises they won’t get in such a relationship, then sux 2 b u.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Yea it is just the non-disclosure part that bothers me. All else is good.

[Bogie]

I’m not so sure why people think that the process is transparent. I know PLENTY of people who know that their trainer is sponsored by a company but have no idea there is a financial benefit to the trainer in having them buy a saddle.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8684331]
I’m not so sure why people think that the process is transparent. I know PLENTY of people who know that their trainer is sponsored by a company but have no idea there is a financial benefit to the trainer in having them buy a saddle.[/QUOTE]

Agree, and even if they “sort of know” through the grapevine-- rarely does the client know the specifics (is it payment of cash, of products, a discount on future purchases, could the client take a discount/free girth instead if the trainer waived the kickback, etc.)

[DMK]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8684272]
Thanks. Yea it is just the non-disclosure part that bothers me. All else is good.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it’s just me who wonders if this isn’t disclosed, is it just the tip of the iceberg? But like I said, could just be me thinking if there is one ethical breach there could be others. I’m distrustful like that.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8678908]
More specifically the deal they get is that if they get a certain number of saddles sold, as in to their students, they get to keep the saddle free, if not the saddle goes back or they own money on. That is how the contract is written… Essentially a pay-o-la scheme…[/QUOTE]

Those deals vary by saddle company, don’t assume they are all the same.

No, doesn’t bother me…the fact the saddle company logo is displayed prominently in the barn and under the farm name on the stall drapes at shows is a clue it’s no secret. And, yes, I bought a saddle from a saddlery my trainer had a disclosed relationship with. Because it fit me, the horse and I got fabulous service from the NA rep. No, I don’t know the details of that relationship, None of my business, I was free to choose something else as an educated, adult client and was not pressured.

Fact was considering a couple of others, none were available locally and I got far better service from that rep. That swayed me more the trainers recommendation to be perfectly honest.

Endorsements are nothing new in the advertising business.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=lindsay.anne;8682036]
I guess I can play devils advocate from a different perspective. I ride in a specific saddle because I like it, I like the way it fits me. I like the way I ride in it. I like the way it fits my own horses. And I like the way it fits the other horses I ride. I thoroughly enjoy the company, their representatives, and the technology behind the saddles. Therefore, I recommend this saddle company to my clients.

Yes, I get a money I can spend on the company’s other tack (saddles, bridles, boots, whatever I choose) when a client purchases. BUT I advise because that is the saddle company I believe in. I get a representative that comes at the drop of a hat. A representative that comes to watch my kids ride in their purchased saddle if they are not happy and take it back for changes. I get a representative to spend hours at my barn playing musical saddles for my clients to piece together their favorite fit (which flap, what seat, what leather).

I see no difference in a trainer recommending a specific saddle (if there are commissions for the trainer or not) and a trainer recommending you ride in a Samshield and Parlantis in the equitation ring. Or a trainer recommending a specific supplement or farrier or vet to use. Just my opinion :)[/QUOTE]

My only issue with this is that no saddle brand can fit every horse, even with padding the panels and torquing the gullet in a press. Some horses will never get an optimum fit from some brands, because the tree shape is not good for that horse. If all the horses in a barn have similar conformation, then one saddle brand might be a good fit for all of them. But even within a breed, there are significant differences in the slope and curve of the back between individuals, even if they all have similar high withers, for instance.

IME, brand reps promise they can make their saddle fit every horse in the world, and they can’t. I’ve seen people pay out $6000 for a “custom fit” saddle and still have bridging problems, evident when you look at the saddle pad dirt patterns.

Ditto to helmet brands Some people have oval heads, some have round heads, and they aren’t going to all fit in the same brand of helmet.

[Come_Shine]

Having an issue with this right now. Trainer has a custom saddle for a horse with a very different shape from the one I just bought. She would like me to buy her ‘old’ saddle so that the saddle company will make her a new one (that’s the deal for her). If it fit my horse, this would be great. I actually bought her old dressage saddle for my other horse. Unfortunately, it does not fit my new horse and she is really pushing me to buy saying that he is an odd shape and that it is the best fit I could hope for. I am really disappointed in her that she expects me to pay close to 4K for a saddle that does not fit.

[trubandloki]

I think part of the reason this does not bother me is in my line of work I deal quite a bit with vendors/sales representatives. I will call a sales rep for a recommendation on a product and (thankfully) I deal with a bunch of great people because if they do not have a product to do what I need they will suggest I use a brand of product not sold by them.

In other words, I might be too trusting of the trainer doing right by the rider in the saddle picking process.

[Inclined]

[QUOTE=Come Shine;8685579]
Having an issue with this right now. Trainer has a custom saddle for a horse with a very different shape from the one I just bought. She would like me to buy her ‘old’ saddle so that the saddle company will make her a new one (that’s the deal for her). If it fit my horse, this would be great. I actually bought her old dressage saddle for my other horse. Unfortunately, it does not fit my new horse and she is really pushing me to buy saying that he is an odd shape and that it is the best fit I could hope for. I am really disappointed in her that she expects me to pay close to 4K for a saddle that does not fit.[/QUOTE]

It looks like she’s going to have to find someone else to fix her saddle problem. Good for you for trusting your instincts and looking out for your new horse!

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8684040]
On a similar note, I am tired of every instagram for the 14 and under riding set including over-the-top promotions of brands and sponsorship. I find it really distasteful that PONY RIDERS are now “brand ambassadors” and are being used to shill goods. They’re not even old enough to sign a contract, and someone is using them for promotion. I hate the over commercialization of riding and I personally am not interested in buying any brand that promotes it’s goods this way. Pro adult riders is a little bit of a different story to me (though I still get annoyed by the heavy-handed promotion at times)-- but I should not click on a link to a picture of local kid riding at a schooling show and be told all about some discount code for the breeches that sponsor her. I just don’t like it.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. As well, I absolutely hate the misuse of the word “ambassador” in this commercial context.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=Come Shine;8685579]
Having an issue with this right now. Trainer has a custom saddle for a horse with a very different shape from the one I just bought. She would like me to buy her ‘old’ saddle so that the saddle company will make her a new one (that’s the deal for her). If it fit my horse, this would be great. I actually bought her old dressage saddle for my other horse. Unfortunately, it does not fit my new horse and she is really pushing me to buy saying that he is an odd shape and that it is the best fit I could hope for. I am really disappointed in her that she expects me to pay close to 4K for a saddle that does not fit.[/QUOTE]

Lord. That’s bad. That would undermine my trust in her big time. At least you are not falling for it.

[SendenHorse]

Yikes! No way!

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=Come Shine;8685579]
Having an issue with this right now. Trainer has a custom saddle for a horse with a very different shape from the one I just bought. She would like me to buy her ‘old’ saddle so that the saddle company will make her a new one (that’s the deal for her). If it fit my horse, this would be great. I actually bought her old dressage saddle for my other horse. Unfortunately, it does not fit my new horse and she is really pushing me to buy saying that he is an odd shape and that it is the best fit I could hope for. I am really disappointed in her that she expects me to pay close to 4K for a saddle that does not fit.[/QUOTE]

Yikes! That’s ridiculous.

[rennyben]

[QUOTE=PROTACKGUY;8679044]
Had a bad taste as my daughter recently was pushed into a certain brand of saddle because her trainer said she needed it to ride better. As I was in the industry at one time I knew the tack shop owner and was told the details of what was going on and I felt it was just not right. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned but I think the trainers integrity is essential.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s all in how it’s handled by the trainer. I had one trainer tell me flat out “You HAVE to buy brand A. Literally. You have to. Because I’m sponsored by them.” That pissed me off. Especially as I didn’t love her saddles. I had another trainer say, “I’m sponsored by brand B. They are good saddles, but you seem to like a closer contact so let’s try some B but also some C and D brands.” I bought brand D with her blessing.

Second trainer won a huge amount of brownie points for being up front and honest and still putting what was best for me ahead of her sponsorship contract. I would be put off if a trainer never mentioned their kickback or sponsorship.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=Come Shine;8685579]
Having an issue with this right now. Trainer has a custom saddle for a horse with a very different shape from the one I just bought. She would like me to buy her ‘old’ saddle so that the saddle company will make her a new one (that’s the deal for her). If it fit my horse, this would be great. I actually bought her old dressage saddle for my other horse. Unfortunately, it does not fit my new horse and she is really pushing me to buy saying that he is an odd shape and that it is the best fit I could hope for. I am really disappointed in her that she expects me to pay close to 4K for a saddle that does not fit.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm…that tells me she doesn’t give a crap about what’s best for you and your horse, puts her needs above yours and doesn’t give a rats hind end about what you want. That’s no mentor/teacher-that sounds like your about to be ex trainer. Be my ex trainer. “Suck it up and deal so I get a new saddle” is no way to present a solution to client saddle fit issues.

She can suggest all she wants, point out your position may have current saddle caused flaws, point out current saddle is not a proper fit for horse. That’s fine. Telling you to settle on any saddle that doesn’t fit implying your horse is hopeless in the fit department seriously crosses the line. The fact pushing the ill fitting saddle on a client creates a substantial financial benefit for her is an ethical breach. Wonder what else she blows off when it benefits her?