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do you Ace?

Hunting
#21

All depends upon who you talk to in those industries … and if they’ll speak the truth. I know that ACE is used in the training stables – been there and seen it myself. BUT it isn’t used indiscriminately – it is used when needed.

Racetrack ponies are supposed to be dead quiet – who’s to say that a 1/2 cc 45 minutes before post-time won’t be needed for assuring that the pony is dead quiet for ponying a rev’ed, fit, prancing, and ready-to-go racehorse just aching to run. The pony isn’t going to race, isn’t going to compete, isn’t going to do anything except quietly lead the racehorse in the post parade and NOT get excited itself.

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#22

There you go! See … you (and I) weren’t quite born in the era that gloried in having hunt grooms to do all the dirty work – including legging up one’s string of hunters and giving the horses a “wee nip” so that they behaved for the owner in the field. :winkgrin: <Painted Wings is 100% right>

We just have to do it all ourselves now, didn’t we? <heavy sigh!>

And if you were as unlucky as me in the color choice of your favorite hunter … you had a gray! You would think I would learn, wouldn’t you, but… my current hunter is also a gray!! :rolleyes: And the groom I raised from scratch … is now into motorized things that go zoom-zoom!

#23

Foxhunters are not breaking any kind of regulation if they ACE before they ride. I actually think that compared to my memories of riding hunters as a teen in the '70s, the foxhunters I know are breaking far fewer rules when it comes to riding a horse that has not been “tuned up” for the event.

At one point I did ask a vet about it and was told that a low dose of ACE before a hunt (or any event where a horse might need to reduce anxiety) was not going to create an unsafe situation. Certainly, I’ve aced my TB when he was going to be left behind in a field to ease the initial separation anxiety, and it didn’t cause him to be clumsy or sluggish. It did help prevent him from running continuously for the time that I was gone with his buddy, which I saw as a big advantage. I really don’t want a horse to hurt itself by running around like an idiot.

I know some people say that giving ACE hinders the learning curve, but I haven’t found that to be true either. After being ACED a few times, my TB has learned that I will bring his friend back and he generally settles himself in less than 5 minutes.

#24

Foxhunting isn’t a “competitive event”, and what exactly is a “clinical dose”? I would hazard a guess it’s more than just a “wee nip”.
I have known of people acing horses (one was mom doing her kid’s pony, which I thought was a little scary), and I have aced one myself. He only got 1/2 a cc half an hour before we hunted, it helped him to not wig out when the hounds came out of the trailer, and then he was ok. It was his first season, and eventually the decision was made that he really didn’t like hunting so he has gone on to a new job. But I wanted to give him every chance.
IME, I don’t think it is predominantly staff doing it, they are generally good enough horsemen and the horses well schooled enough they dont’ need to. I know when I am whipping in I wouldn’t want to be off in rough terrain alone riding like a nut on a horse that was on ace. We both need to have all our wits about us.
I think the acing is primarily done in the field mostly by people who might be a bit overhorsed.

#25

I have seen ace used a few times. The horses weren’t treated to the point where they were falling over -just calm. I’d say just like person who takes a xanax or valium before a big presentation. There is “calm” and there is drooling in your salad. I do think that making the decision and riding the horse when treated should be done by an experienced horse person and if the horse isn’t responding well either way, a person willing to excuse him or herself.

I had a nonhunting friend tell me when training my young horse that he would often use ACE if he felt the horse was too keyed up or nervous with initial training. He had a lot of OTTBs and said the value of a positive experience the first few times out could not be measured. Did he ace all the time? No, he didn’t. But in a situation where he knew the horse might or had a previous problem , he gave enough to take the edge off.

#26

I was discussing this with a friend last night, and it really depends. Though I haven’t used it much, it can be helpful to make sure there is a good experience.

My previous vet had me give my mare Ace before I rode her after she had been off for about a year. She had had a suspensory injury and he didn’t want her lunging and putting stress on her legs by pounding her in circles. So I’d give her a nip and then go walking with her. Saved me from getting hurt, and her too.

As for in the hunt field, most experienced hunt people should know what doses of what their horses can handle. I’ve known several OTTB’s that would benefit from taking the edge off a bit, on the other hand, I had an OTTB that on 1cc of ace, couldn’t walk a straight line. I’ve also known a few other young ones (non-TB’s) that need it just for the opening moments of hunting their very first times out just to make sure that they don’t do something overly stupid.

It really should be used with discretion, but I know, from being around, I’ve seen it used a bit excessively by certain people I know, and definitely don’t agree with the philosophy of a horse needing it EVERY time they go out! (Though, it seems to work for SSR, and I would trust her judgment on a hunt horse any day)

#27

Heck well I’m persuaded:eek:

Seems that drugging them beats good training good preparation and good riding !

#28

Well, this has certainly been an eye-opening conversation, and I thank you all for being so candid.

Truly I don’t think I was unaware of what was going on in our hunt. I knew our horses well, rode them or worked around them daily over a period of years. The people with whom I hunted were horsemen and horsewomen of standing in our area. I knew their ability in the saddle, and while looking at photos of them now I can see position changes I would propose, I am completely confident that they would not drug their horses, then or now.

I know that in some competitive equine circles drugs are used. Those tend to be circles in which the horse’s appearance and behavior must conform to a very narrow norm. I have always avoided those areas of endeavor as unallied with my own goals.

I feel a little bit naive and silly. I’ve spent my whole horse life believing that the correct way to achieve a desired behavior was through training, and that using any coercive device – drugs certainly being high on that list – was a weakness and a shame. I also believed that good and honorable horsepeople felt the same way. It’s quite shocking to discover that this view is not as universal as I believed.

As for the young man whose casual question sparked this query, I am going to tell him that while some people may condone using drugs to calm a horse who is not equipped for a situation, I do not. I will tell him that he is capable of setting a better example.

Again, I thank you for your candor.

#29

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2948869]
Heck well I’m persuaded:eek:

Seems that drugging them beats good training good preparation and good riding ![/QUOTE]

I think that’s a bit of an overstep Thomas. I mean, I’m not a psychic, but you can’t predict how a horse is going to react 100%, and many people here have said that they use it for the FIRST time out, when you really don’t know how a horse will react. With all the prep, training, and good riding in the world, you don’t know that under all the circumstances of going out for the first time the horse isn’t going to nearly have a melt down.

As I said, I’m not FOR it, but it could be used as a precaution.

#30

I have started a couple of horses hunting. My own field hunter - I did not ace him for his first hunt (or second, or third, etc) and I actually got chastised for not doing so by this farm manager woman who was driving her Subaru around the meet “medicating” those “in need.” She really let me have it for not acing my guy - before the meet and the next week when she saw me in the barn. He probably could have benefited from it, in all honesty, on that first hunt as he completely wigged when we first trotted off behind the hounds (and I WAS hilltopping) … cowhorse bucking and all. After he got the buck out he did settle down - but needed to walk a 20 m circle to stay “chill,” which resulted in much eye rolling from hunt members. While I was circling, the MFH of the hunt, a 75+ year old woman, came over to me on her horse and asked if I had aced the horse. When I said that I had not, she really let me have it! The horse really had not made a huge fuss - he put in a big buck during the first trot, and that was it. Boy did I get it for not acing him!!!

Anyway, he turned out to be a very nice fox hunter; hunted with many packs in VA and NC and not on ace.

Anyway, another horse that I started hunting, for a friend - I did not Ace him for his first hunt. We stayed in the very back and he was a ball of nerves for the entire hunt… I got chastised by a very prominent foxhunter from a big VA hunt when she asked if I aced him and I told her “no.” I thought her lecture to me was quite humorous at the time. The pony ended up being a nice, quiet foxhunter given a few more chances.

I do not have a problem using Ace for hunting. I haven’t used it much myself but I don’t have a problem with those who do use it.

#31

You asked, and were given honest answers without anyone here passing judgement on you. Telling that “young man” that he could be “setting a better example” comes across as a bit self-rightous and preachy, don’t you think?

#32

[QUOTE=gothedistance;2948969]
You asked, and were given honest answers without anyone here passing judgement on you. Telling that “young man” that he could be “setting a better example” is a bit self-rightous and preachy, don’t you think? [/QUOTE] Well I don’t think its self-righteous. But it is the right thing to do and say.

Since when was it considered to be normal to tranquilise horses just so you can go out hunting.

For goodness sake if you can’t manage a horse out hunting then you and the horse shouldn’t be out in the field.

And if you’re working as a professional in hunting then you should be setting an example and properly and effectively preparing horses and managing them well when out in the field.

#33

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be self-righteous or preachy. I didn’t hear anyone here saying that Acing was a good thing or the greatest way to handle horses. Most people seemed to feel that they are driven to it by other people or by circumstances. As the young man intends to be hunt staff, he will have an opportunity to stand as an example to other riders. That’s all I meant.

#34

I know, Dale. I recognize you as a very sweet, very caring individual. :yes: The comment just surprised me, coming from you

But in this instance, I think you should just leave well enough alone, and tuck the information the young man gave you into the back of your brain for your own personal observations. He is going to do as he’s told by his superiors, and if he takes a young horse out on the hunt field, untried, as a staff horse, and if he was told to give it some ACE to help it stay calm, and he doesn’t and it gets excited and kicks/tramples/kills a hound – the consequences will be far worse for him… and the horse…than a 1/2cc of ace. The hunt staff has to think “safety first” ALWAYS around the hounds. A good hound is worth more in the eyes of a huntsman than any horse…ever.

You need to keep in mind – with staff the horse is merely conveyance. It HAS to be safe, sane, biddable, and mannerly at all times. If it’s not, it’s worthless, and it renders the staff worthless as well. The staff has to keep their full attention on the hounds, not dealing with a horse that won’t settle down without an hour of hard riding. Horses are expendable when one rides as staff – the hounds are the only reason for being out there.

Ask me how I know. :winkgrin:

Not so in the field, or to a much lesser extent. However, in the field a fractious horse can be a danger to others, while those who can’t stand still at the checks and mill around create noise which prevents others from listening/paying attention to the hounds – the sole reason you should be out there in the field.

#35

The one time I used Ace the thing that amazed me most is that he stopped caring about where his barn buddies were. Other than that I really could tell no difference in his demeanor.

It made me wonder… Would Ace be of benefit to mares and foals during the weaning process, maybe for the first day and I wonder if anyone does it.

I have had foals go over fences on the first day and fortunately none have gotten hurt. I’m wondering if a little Ace wouldn’t have eased the anxiety at least for the first couple of hours.

#36

IMHO, an untried young horse has no business being a staff horse anymore than someone who has never hunted before serving as whipper in (not that your friend has not done so, but you get my point). I believe a horse, as well as human, should learn to hunt properly before being asked to serve as in a staff capacity.
And for some other folks, no one has said that using Ace is the norm, or the rule, or that everyone does it, or that it replaces proper training etc. To the contrary, using Ace is the exception rather than the rule, and IME is used as an aid to assist in proper training. In my situation, we hunted the horse almost a whole season before the decision was made to just give a “wee nip”, which was done after consultation with the vet, and done very judiciously. Much consideration was made to the territory in particular we would be hunting each time. The more demanding territories, obviously no ace, but the easier ones, a touch. And we hilltopped.
As I said the decision was made that the horse needed another job after we did everything we could to help him out. As others said, there is a difference between taking the edge off before a big presentation and having a three martini lunch.
I have brought along other horses from first hunt to being hunted for years, including my homebred 5 year old who is in her second season and is whipping in now and again, without using it.
It is a decision that only the rider/trainer/owner of the horse can make, and hopefully it will be made in an informed manner rather than carelessly. Of course, I would never advocate ace as being a permanent part of a hunter’s career, it should be used for a short time and then “outgrown”, if at all.
If a little touch of Vitamin A can make for a successful hunt/hunter as opposed to the horse and all around it being miserable, then why is it such a big deal?

#37

However, in the field a fractious horse can be a danger to others, while those who can’t stand still at the checks and mill around create noise which prevents others from listening/paying attention to the hounds – the sole reason you should be out there in the field.[/QUOTE]

Such a horse can also head the fox, which would then cause him to possibly be trapped etc and not be a “fair” hunt if his escape is interrupted, and can prevent the hunt staff from hearing things that they need to hear as well.

#38

GTD, I hope I am a “sweet and caring person” – at least, I do try to be. But I’m also a professional horsewoman with a 40-year career behind me and, I hope, many more years to go.

I was equally surprised by your response, so soon after our “driving horses born, not made?” thread on the driving forum.

If the correct sort of horse and the correct sort of training are necessary to make a driving horse, why is the same not true of a hunting horse?

If anyone decides to pop over and visit that discussion, you should also visit the “wrecks” thread to see what can go wrong in driving. :eek:

Again, my thanks to all of you for responding candidly.

#39

It is the same. What is different about hunting is the elements that are impossible to duplicate in the ring, or during a hunt trail ride where the horses learn to be part of a fast moving goup and jump safely, or out roading hounds where horses will learn to give way to hounds, not be spooked by them, tolerate the crack of a whip nearby, not kick or act fractious, stand quietly while hounds are gathered, etc…

… and that is when the horse is taken into the hunt field for the actual hunting of hounds. Even the best behaved horses can have moments of “wtf?” when they see for the first time the hounds take off in full cry, the huntsman’s horn and/or voice blasting the air, the fields taking off at a gallop. Some horses are total naturals who take to hunting like a duck to water. I’ve had the joy of riding those types – they love hunting from the moment they first see hounds, and never put a foot wrong. I can usually spot that type in a heartbeat when the hounds come piling out of the kennel truck/trailer. They gaze on everything with a calm eye, and you just breathe out your held breath and know (pretty much) you’ve got a safe conveyance underneath you.

Unlike all other horse sports, hunting is the only one that one can’t fully introduce their horse to it without actually doing it. It is a really hard sport to judge if a horse will pass or fail until the moment of truth. Even the best horse who passes all the previous training can decide that “real hunting” just isn’t going to be part of their career path. I’ve seen those horses introduced into the hunt field, and never seen again.

And, like you, I was once innocent and unaware of the use of drugs in the show ring, et al, etc. It wasn’t part of my personal or competitive lifestyle, but…neither do I judge other people because I may not know their situation or their reasons for using what they may feel they need.

I personally chose to drive/ride something that enjoys what I enjoy without need of constant (or any!) coercive devices. Some may require more time and training to reach that goal – but if I feel they are worth it, and they show me that they are willing to put in the effort to learn, I’ll put in the time and effort on my part. Otherwise, it’s not worth the fight or the headache on either of our parts, and better to just move them along to someone else who has a different career path in mind. :yes:

And you ARE a delightful person!! I’m hoping one day our paths will meet in the driving world – we’ll have lots and lots to talk about, I’m sure! :smiley:

#40

I have a good friend who whips. I admire her horsemanship greatly… she does a wonderful job bringing young horses along, whether they are going to be foxhunters, trail horses, hunters or dressage horses. I would leave a horse w/her in a minute to train.

I know that she is very careful that her young horses, at least for the first couple of times, DO NOT have a bad or exciting experience when she takes them out. I know that she will Ace them if she is concerned about it. Given the end product that she produces, it must be a valid training tool - her horses have no holes.

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