Do you practice Rollkur?

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4649852]
CM, please stop re-directing the conversation about me personally. As I said before to you, it’s not about us humans; it’s about HORSES that I am interested to talk about. It will be great if you, Don, and some others will be able to stay concentrated on the subject and talks about TRANING and HORSES.

Please remember, as OP, I’m not twisting anybody’s arms to post on this thread. If you do not want to be addressed by MBM or me or other PRO-HORSE posters = please feel free not to post on this thread about this subject.[/QUOTE]

Ummmm… I’M the one who said it’s not about us :confused:

And pro-horse? Someone gag me please. :rolleyes:

How do I work the ignore function again?

I love Rollkur! Sjef deserves a Nobel Prize for what he’s done! I Rollkur my horses all about the village, and in just a few months they’re up to Grand Prix.

Any real rider knows it’s the bees-knees. The rest of you are just a bunch of American pansies!!

:lol:

Hmm, did everyone miss the post from the Mods?

Perhaps we should just all go over to the thread started by sebastian… That one seems to be holding up pretty well, haha.

[QUOTE=mp;4649827]

When you’re logged in, you’ll see something that says User CP in the blue bar at the very top of the forum page.

Click on that and it will take you to your Control Panel.

On the lefthand column at the very bottom, you’ll see Buddy/Ignore Lists.

Put the yappers on your Ignore list and you’ll only see their names when they post, but you won’t have to look at the actual yapping.[/QUOTE]

here you go, cm.

I really was hoping for more than “lay off the wine” from DA and still hope for something more from the anti-RK crowd besides rants. Because I am actually LEARNING something from the other side. It’s not that I’ll go to the barn tomorrow and start using LDR/RK/whatever you want to call it. I dwell in the sub-sub basement of dressage. But I know what it’s like to try to get a horse to release his back when he’s got other notions (and no, his other notions are not related to pain or conformational problems). But at least I’ve got a glimmer of WHY someone might use it and WHAT the results should be in the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing.

Colonel Carde on Baucher and rollkur:

“Des petits malins ont tenté de justifier l’enroulement en le faisant coïncider avec le ramener outré de Baucher. Ce qui ne résiste pas une seconde à l’analyse puisque le bauchérisme ne conçoit le ramener outré que dans le rassembler, et pour le parfaire, et jamais en l’obtenant en force. « Au cours d’un enroulement de l’encolure sain, les mains du cavalier suivent l’enroulement et ne le provoquent pas » a écrit Jean Yves Le Guillou, ce qui me va tout à fait mais n’a rien à voir avec la façon dont s’y prennent les adeptes de l’hyper flexion. Il faudrait donc un long apprentissage du cavalier pour que ce procédé puisse être employé avec bonheur. Or notre époque ne le permettra pas par manque de maîtres qui le maîtriseraient et parce que le monde de la compétition est pressé.”

I leave it up to Donny K to translate it since he is so familiar with Baucher. Suffice to say, Colonel Carde who is a trainer (!) does not agree that rollkur and ramener outre are the same thing at all. Not for one second.

But what does he know, he was only at the Cadre Noir for 26 years and became its leader and coached Olympians. Compared to a guy that “also” does doma vaquera, I can see how he would be at a loss.

Nothing agaisnt doma vaquera, when done properly, there is beautiful freedom in the neck.

[QUOTE=nhwr;4649248]
Thanks for the clarification of the already obvious, BP.

Anyone who rides will experience bad moments, often many in a ride. The more you ride, the more this may happen. When people go to a show with a video camera and an agenda to make people look bad, they can do it easily. So what? Only a fool would believe that is a compete representation of anything.

IRL, I have seen more horses crippled by supposedly “classical” riding than any other method. But I know that this is the result, not of classical riding, but of just plain bad riding. The same could said about any training method; bad riding can be injurious to horses.

The anti-rolkur people make the leap that rolkur is bad riding, ipso facto. My experience (and many other people’s) is different.[/QUOTE]

So show us some video of what is considered GOOD rollkur riding. How can this be so hard to do if the training is such a positive thing?

We have all seen those horrendous video clips of horses being trained to “dance” between pillars and know it is wrong. We also know that there is good training between pillars because we have seen it.

Why can’t we see good rollkur training?

This is truly silly.I have not said once they are the same thing.Not once.But anyone who has had these books in their hands and in front of their eyes will read the words and especially,see the DRAWINGS and draw their own conclusions about whether the drawings of horses in Ramener Outre remind them of anything.Of whether Kerbrecht’s descriptions sound a little similar to interviews I hope these interested party’s have read or heard on the internet.It is silly to think I’m saying they are the same.For God sake it is 140 years later.How could they be the same?But is it possible Uwe Schulten Baumer and Sjef Jansen read these books?They are smart men.I wager they did.And perhaps then said," I’m going to try that," and evoled it into their current system which I AM educated in.I will say one more time.When the current system of LDR is correctly excecuted it is as without force as any previous or current classical riding.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

We have all seen those horrendous video clips of horses being trained to “dance” between pillars and know it is wrong. We also know that there is good training between pillars because we have seen it.

Oh dear, you detest the Spanish Riding School of Vienna, too?

Why can’t we see good rollkur training?
I am not a videographer, so I don’t have anything to offer.

My suggestion; ask people who take videos.

My suspicion; those who practice it successfuy aren’t particularly interested in converting skeptics.

So sad, now Sjeff is a Nouveau Baucherist and that should give him what, credibility because he picked a 120 year old or so technique that happens to be considered one of the harshest method ever created to train dressage horses (Premiere Maniere)

I have yet to see images of rollkur without excessive saliva, sweat, red exorbited eyes, gaping mouth, all physical signs that the horse is in fact being forced ever so gently.

Retiring from RK discussion for the second time in 24 hours. No point.

Retiring from RK discussion for the second time in 24 hours.
Sheesh, Karoline you sound like Mike Tyson.

Baucher is considered a rider of the classical school.

Own it.

[QUOTE=nhwr;4650568]
Sheesh, Karoline you sound like Mike Tyson.

Baucher is considered a rider of the classical school.

Own it.[/QUOTE]

errr… except that many “classical” guys have nothing good to say about Baucher- and the things they do say are…well… not so polite.

Could it be that you are so busy hoaling at the moon that you forget the most important developments around hyperflexion ? For example the most recent scientific study about hyperflexion from which details leaked to the press today :yes:

Do tell :yes:

[QUOTE=MandyHawk;4650627]
Could it be that you are so busy hoaling at the moon that you forget the most important developments around hyperflexion ? For example the most recent scientific study about hyperflexion from which details leaked to the press today :yes:[/QUOTE]

well, it is a full moon… and “hoaling” is a fine sport :wink:

but please do share… what developments did i forget? what scientific studies?

perhaps while you are diggin git up you could also dig up the study about turnout that you never posted?

except that many “classical” guys have nothing good to say about Baucher- and the things they do say are…well… not so polite.
Yes, we all know that flying changes are circus tricks and evil besides :lol:

Adelinde has problems with Parzival blowing up and goes to train with Sjef - remember, his system is not just working with horse but rider as well. Six months later she’s on the Olympic team, eighteen months later has a jolly nice European championship. Gal, HP, Laurens, Lotje, Marjolein, Tommie, Dominique, etc etc etc. It’s a complete training system. And it works. And for those who flap on about videos, do a Rabobank search and you’ll see many clips without a yanky face or bulging eye while the horses are LDR. And as a quick sidebar, nhwr and Sabine shall we have lunch soon? :wink:

I used to. Then I became really good at it, so there’s no need to practice anymore.

Where did you learn rollkur?

From all those neat links you post! Honestly, DA, I should thank you. I’ve saved a freaking fortune on riding lessons.

How did you learn rollkur?

Graphs and a slide rule.

What did rollkur do for your horses?

Skywalker claims he found Jesus. Barney says anything without a jump in it sucks.

If you are indifferent to the subject of rollkur, why do you bother posting on this thread?

Because watching you slowly implode is more interesting than waiting for the rain to stop so that I can go and ride my horses. You do remember what horses look like, don’t you? And that there are people who RIDE them?

I don’t believe that argument works. People who don’t agree with thee are ignorant, inexperienced, unhappy, mentally unbalanced…these arguments have been tried in every debate since the dawn of humankind. They always involve errors of logic. Though they are helpful for preaching to the choir…

For example, compare what Ingrid Klimke teaches about hyperflexion, to what Edward Gal teaches. Two internationally competitive riders with years of experience on multiple horses at the top of sport. ‘You disagree because you don’t ride’ goes splat on its face right there.

Is it true that most of the people who dislike hyperflexion all don’t ride much? Or at a ‘high enough level’? A high enough level for what? To offer an opinion?

Should less experienced people be listened to? Of course, people with less experience in riding will often tend to view things with extreme rigidity.

Too, getting passionate about dressage, almost always involves adopting at least some of that ‘the world is going to pot’ attitude that is a part of every ‘classical’ model. One feels that one is a lone flame in the darkness of an ignorant and evil world. That is a very, very powerful psychology, and leads to lots and lots of chest thumping.

On the flip side, quite a few people believe that a less experienced person is a far better choice to evaluate something than someone who is an ‘insider’. That’s a very, very strong part of the baby boomer, ‘I can protest everything’ mentality.

Is that approach wrong? That debate is also as old as the hills. You won’t resolve that here.

Fact is though, what we have a habit of doing, and see around us a lot, and see our superiors and heroes doing, we think is right. Humans often unquestioningly accept rationales for doing things that they are accustomed to doing and seeing, and always have. Therefore one can make a good argument that an ‘insider’ with ‘knowledge’ and ‘experience’ is not always the best choice for evaluating a practice.

The fact is, in every endeavor there is, the vast unwashed have a great deal to do with shaping that endeavor, for better or worse.

What non-insiders think of hyperflexion, regardless of who agrees with them or not, may be a very important factor in what happens next. In fact, we may get into a situation some day where the FEI defines and bans hyperflexion from the warmup, without a single one of those officials EVER believing it is bad for horses or dressage.

Slicky, not sure who that was directed at (or were you just talking in abstact), but my post wasn’t aimed at those who are anti hyperflexion, but rather at those who ride their keyboards more than their horses.

You do know some people like that, don’t you?