Stop your endless whining, Don, and have a beer!
Facts are too strong for you to argue with Don? Or you think that rollkur and Philippe Karl have the same interpretation of Baucher? :lol:
DRR, are you asking a mere woman to do your dirty work? Ok. I will.
Dressage Art, please leave the Don alone. LOL. This man sounds like he actually rides horses.
CM, I think you are still missing my point, it’s NOT about me or you. We are not the victims. It’s HORSES who are the victims. And it’s HORSES who matter the most here. Not me, you or pointless bickering.
PS: I think somewhere in the 10 pages of bickering of who is bullying who… there is a question that Blue asked me… I’ll try to find it and answer.
Don, do you know how to put someone on ignore? If not, here are complete instructions.
When you’re logged in, you’ll see something that says User CP in the blue bar at the very top of the forum page.
Click on that and it will take you to your Control Panel.
On the lefthand column at the very bottom, you’ll see Buddy/Ignore Lists.
Put the yappers on your Ignore list and you’ll only see their names when they post, but you won’t have to look at the yapping.
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4649823]
CM, I think you are still missing my point, it’s NOT about me or you. We are not the victims. It’s HORSES who are the victims. And it’s HORSES who matter the most here. Not me, you or pointless bickering.[/QUOTE]
Then why do you keep whining about how mean everyone is to you? Like I said, 90% of your posts have nothing to do with anything, they’re just you playing the victim.
DA: That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just as others are entitled to theirs. You can back yours up. I can back mine up. But what’s the point? Why not wait and see what the FEI does. Life’s too short to spend endlessly stressing your vocal chords. I’d rather be riding.
CM, please stop re-directing the conversation about me personally. As I said before to you, it’s not about us humans; it’s about HORSES that I am interested to talk about. It will be great if you, Don, and some others will be able to stay concentrated on the subject and talks about TRANING and HORSES.
Please remember, as OP, I’m not twisting anybody’s arms to post on this thread. If you do not want to be addressed by MBM or me or other PRO-HORSE posters = please feel free not to post on this thread about this subject.
Perhaps prefacing the original post with “and if you do, you are a heathen” would have done away with all those who disagree with other opinions. Removing judgement from the equation would allow for better discussion, if that was the true objective of this thread. Off to get another beer for me and my horse.
[QUOTE=escondi;4649831]
DA: That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just as others are entitled to theirs. You can back yours up. I can back mine up. But what’s the point? Why not wait and see what the FEI does. Life’s too short to spend endlessly stressing your vocal chords. I’d rather be riding.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I started this thread to be able to understand why/when Deep needs to become Rollkur. I read the available pro-rollkur books and watched the videos. I am open for education and to understand it more. But it seems that the pro-rollkur posters really want to repeatedly peg me in to the anti-rollkur extremist camp. They are not doing any favors for themselves by doing that. I consider myself in the middle ground, since I am OK with Deep riding methods (as I said many times), but if I’m pushed to choose between “Extreme Rollkur” and “Extreme Classical” = I’ll choose “extreme classical”, since it’s much SAFER for the horse in ANY hands = not just in hands of a few supper elite riders of the world with the supper elite horses who can pay supper amounts of $$$$$ for their training.
The superficial campaign-like talk about that rollkur “relaxes the back” and “gymnastically exercises the elite top level horse” = is not specific enough, since it can be applied with the same results to the Deep method or even to the Classical method. It’s a generic sweep of the several generic sentences that can fit with ANY program. We all want our horses to be flexible and supple.
But where is the line when that horse needs to become a rollkur horse? That question wasn’t yet answered.
After watching the Blue Tongue video and after hearing the FEI ruling, I’m deeply disappointed and troubled for the wellbeing of dressage horses. I do not think that FEI made a correct decision. I’m a long time paying member of USDF and USEF, a long time volunteer and was signed up to volunteer for the 1020 WEG as well. But I do not want to support with my membership money or with my volunteer hours organization that thinks that it’s OK to warm-up like a blue tongue. Thus, I felt the need to voice my opinion publicly.
I am pro-horse.
You were not satisfied with the response? But apparently experts were satisfied. If the response does not agree with your own ideology, then you are not satisfied with it. This sounds to me like the poker game in which a player loses and then insists all other players were cheating.
I rarely post here at all. But when I saw someone who I believe is an old buddy of mine posting and getting ripped apart, and if that is indeed my old buddy, then, well - I’ll keep the conclusion to myself and leave this discussion now. He’s more than well-equipped, more than well-versed, in the discipline of dressage, doma (vaq., et al.), and needs no assistance from me.
Joke’s on you!
Ok.I repeat.Kerbrecht is universaly accepted,along with Le Hotte of being Baucher’s primary protoges.In the intro to the book Kerbrecht states that the book will address ONLY Baucher’s second manner,not what he thinks Baucher meant but what Baucher said to him.He makes this clear before the book really begins. There is an entire chapter devoted to Ramener Outre.This is a fact.It is quite possible that Karl does not like or practice Ramener Outre.That is his perogitive.But to answer your question,yes I’m certain Karl would agree the book is by Baucher’s acknowledged protoge.Yes.I believe he would acknowledge that the book refers only to the second manner because he can read better than I can spell.Yes.He will agree that the lengthy chapter titled simply Ramemer Outre is in the book and describes the systematic longditudinal overbending of the horse,first motionless and slowly over a long period of time moved into all the normal movements in motion,because he can read.Whether Karl chooses to practice this part is up to Karl and Karl alone.But previous information about Baucher,his student Kerbrecht,and Kerbrecht’s writing is a fact.
You are outgunned on real information.Prove otherwise with facts if I must have this confrontational exchange with you.I state my opinion when it is only an opinion and facts regarding written words when they are facts.I’m positive Karl has read this book cover to cover 30 times or more!Figure out how to contact him and ask him your questions.He will say what I say about the book and may say he doesnt like that part.I have no idea if he practices Ramiener Outre or not!The book is an historical record.If you have not read it try to aquire it!Read!Learn!And then spend your next 30 years interpreting its meaning,and how to wield it!You will change your tune more times in your next 30 yrs than you now can imagine!Rollkur or not.You will change your tune in many,many,other ways.More than you can imagine!My heart is hurting me.I must go take my pills.I hope you have not killed me.Now that would be abuse of an old man!
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
escondi, so you posted here to protect your “buddy”? Oh, I thought that you posted here to talk about the training and how that training affects the horse…
I wish people would forget their egos and think more about horses than themselves.
[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4648567]
Forgive my spelling.I have a weakness for wine.Please forgive me.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4649951]My heart is hurting me.I must go take my pills.I hope you have not killed me.Now that would be abuse of an old man!
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista[/QUOTE]
WOW, may be take a break from wine as well? Take care of yourself and stay healthy!
I think it’s interesting that there was a rather long back and forth about Baucher… I’m pretty sure some of his methods are also controversial in the dressage world. I’m not bringing this up to start a “Baucher: good or bad?” discussion, but it’s a good example of how even very talented horsemen that some consider beyond repute are also the source of controversy. Why would we think Anky and the like are immune?
Also, a couple of points that keep getting brought up that I find not useful to the discussion:
-They have been using rollkur successfully for years and getting excellent results in the show ring…
Once again, our top riders are top for a reason, they are extremely talented. One aspect of their training style is not necessarily responsible for that success. I would argue that the riders that use rollkur “successfully” might have even better luck with different methods (or a less extreme use of rollkur/deep/etc).
-If you are responding to this thread (especially if you are anti-rollkur, it would seem), you probably never ride and know little about “real” horse training.
This is just rude and often untrue. I’m sure there are many on here that have perhaps retired from a life of horses and also those that are very active in riding but have schedules that permit the 2 minutes it takes them to write one post on this board. You also do not always have to be a pro to be very knowledgeable about something.
Anyway, I absolutely agree that the rollkur debate shouldn’t turn into a witch hunt. The best way to figure out what needs to be done about rollkur (if anything) is for both sides to be open to discussion. I doubt that any of the top riders accused of being abusive on here for using rollkur actually are. If the antis (I include myself in this group, though I try to keep emotion out of it) could curb the witch hunt-tone of their comments, we might get a better response. I think a lot of people that don’t actually like the use of rollkur are more turned off by the witch hunt and so have taken up the defense of those being “picked on” (Anky, PK, etc).
Whew, long post, aaaagain, but, in summary, I think about 65% of this particular thread has been pretty interesting and has had useful information. We should all try to keep bullying, condescenion, and over the top emotion out of our posts, and maybe we can get somewhere on this.
I can’t remember who mentioned Steffen Peter’s response to rollkur, but I liked it. The gist was: I think it looks a bit harsh, so I choose not to practice it. I haven’t seen the quote myself, but I’d imagine that’s about how he’d respond. I like it.
Don Juan,
How do you feel about the Grateful Dead?
As there are some glimmers of productive discussion smoldering in this thread, we’re going to leave it open for the time being, but EVERYONE please stop the various accusations of bullying, requests to stop addressing each other, etc.
If you don’t want to interface with someone, ignore them–either with the official ignore feature explained previously, or by your own powers of restraint.
If you don’t agree with another person’s opinion, discuss why if you want to continue to examine the difference of opinion, but please avoid getting mired down in complaints of who is being dramatic and who is being a bully and stay focused on the topic.
Thanks,
Mod 1
Dressage Art
Grand Prix
Join Date: Oct. 10, 2005
Location: in the saddle
Posts: 3,536
wish people would forget their egos and think more about horses than themselves.
In making assumptions and insinuations about strangers one does not know, you bely what you ask of others. It is rude to imply that anyone on this board does not care about their horses. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? or are you just interested in insulting and slandering those whose opinion you dislike. The problem with discussions is that both sides need to be open to responses, otherwise it is just a fanatic diatribe.
Oh waiter! more whine!
NO
Facts are too strong for you to argue with Don? Or you think that rollkur and Philippe Karl have the same interpretation of Baucher? :lol:
So now you have a very detailed and comprehensive reply to that question so perhaps you could respond with something other than ‘take a break from wine’.?
Are the facts 'too strong for you to argue with", as you put it above ?
