Do you practice Rollkur?

[BaroquePony]

You think, but you cannot know - that’s the whole point! What we believe is very powerful.

Ok, I will try to make my point more clear.

“What we believe is very powerful” and “you think, but you cannot know” seems to completely ignore any type of scientific basis involvijng the physiology of the horse that we do know - the things that we have studied, consider to be factual and that we DO KNOW, ie, a compound fracture will most likely become infected if the horse is left standing out in manure, certain chemicals will blister the skin … come on, there are plenty of things we understand about the horse.

“What we believe is very powerful” - that easily turns into unsubstantiated zealotry - on either side.

[ThreeFigs]

Fburton, I’ve owned and showed Arabians and Half-Arabians, so know the tail carriage you speak of.

I don’t consider it “natural”, however. Natural is natural. Gingering “enhances” (ugh!) the carriage.

The poses assumed by Morgans and Saddlebreds are natural, too, I suppose – for a horse about to urinate! Very attractive!

[BaroquePony]

I’ve seen arabs standing in stalls covered in sweat from head to toe having a nervous break-down. Do we really need to go there?

Also, know plenty of TWH people who immediately state they only do “natural walkers” because they know how important it is to differentiate that they do not do the artifiical hooves, the broken tail, the ginger, the blistering, the head sets, etc… They will tell you that they were very much in favor of some of the laws.

[Ghazzu]

“Does it become uncooperative and unhandleable? Does it try to kick the feaguer? If not, then maybe it’s not nearly as bad as you imagine. The people who do this (and who did this until it was outlawed by the anti-ginger animal rights mob) are experienced horsemen and women - acknowledged experts in their field. Are you saying they didn’t know whether it was unpleasant or not for their horses?”

You are assuming, it would appear, that I have no experience with horses which have been gingered.
That is not the case.
I have done a fair amount of work on both Arabs and Saddlebreds who had been gingered, and it is far more difficult to safely work around their hindquarters than with horses in the same barns (so same handlers) which have not been gingered.

[Ghazzu]

And I’m not assuming that practitioners of gingering “didn’t know whether it was unpleasant”. I rather think they didn’t care.

[Ghazzu]

“It is considered a beautiful pose in Arabian horses. However, I am not surprised that non-Arabian folks are unable to understand or appreciate that.”

Umm, I breed Arabs…

[Don_Raphaelo_Rollkur]

I had said that passages from [now I will begin to speel correctly with the text in front of my eyes]Kerbrech would be better learned through their personal aquisition.I now feel compelled to change this.It may take awhile and several posts but I would like to post verbatum,the front page,the forward by Kerbrech,and the entire chapter on Ramener Outre,or exaggerated Ramener.Title page.
Faverot De Kerbrech
Methodical Training of the Saddle Horse
After the final teachings of F. Baucher collected by one of his pupils
Forward
The finalequestrian ideas of F. Baucher are little known.this illustrious horseman,after the terrible accident which broke both his legs,could no longer mount in public.He lived retired,and after 1861,gave very few courses.Of the few who followed them two or threeare still living.
On the other handbaucher,too old to puttogether in a single volume his diverse works,modified without cease by new discoveries,still managed to make known to the public a complete expose of the latest processes of training.He preferred for the most part to give general principles,contained in a few words,saying that itwas up to the professors taught directly at his school to show how to apply them in the thousand particular cases which are born in the practice.
The detailed lessons of this riding master,umknown,ignored,or disguised most of the time,were in danger of disappearing without leaving a trace.

More later.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

[fburton]

@Beasmom;4651517

Fburton, I’ve owned and showed Arabians and Half-Arabians, so know the tail carriage you speak of.

I don’t consider it “natural”, however. Natural is natural. Gingering “enhances” (ugh!) the carriage.

In the same way that certain exercises and exercise regimes enhance the way a horse goes under saddle - extravagant, exaggerated even, but stunning nonetheless. It’s a matter of perception.

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4651524]I’ve seen arabs standing in stalls covered in sweat from head to toe having a nervous break-down. Do we really need to go there?
[/quote]

Sounds like it was way overdone in that case. I don’t condone that any more than I condone overuse of RK.

Ok… I will stop this pretending now. It wasn’t my intention to cause offence - just to echo slc’s general point about beliefs and perceptions in a slightly provocative way.

[BaroquePony]

There is a reason that the “natural aids” have been defined as such and that the “artificial aids” have been defined as what they are.

The “natural aids” can be used in such a way as to emulate the artifiical aids. Then the definitions begin to get very blurred and so does the training.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4650482]
This is truly silly.I have not said once they are the same thing.Not once.But anyone who has had these books in their hands and in front of their eyes will read the words and especially,see the DRAWINGS and draw their own conclusions about whether the drawings of horses in Ramener Outre remind them of anything.Of whether Kerbrecht’s descriptions sound a little similar to interviews I hope these interested party’s have read or heard on the internet.It is silly to think I’m saying they are the same.For God sake it is 140 years later.How could they be the same?[/QUOTE]Thank you.

[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4650482]But is it possible Uwe Schulten Baumer and Sjef Jansen read these books?They are smart men.I wager they did.And perhaps then said," I’m going to try that," and evoled it into their current system which I AM educated in.I will say one more time.When the current system of LDR is correctly excecuted it is as without force as any previous or current classical riding.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree that Sjef based his system on Baucher’s teachings. But as you clearly demonstrate in your next post, Baucher himself took his ideas too far at first and denounced those after. It’s easier to trick train some horses with severe Baucher methods, but some of those methods are not horse friendly methods and that’s the reason why Baucher was blackballed from some of his fellow horseman of his day.

[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4651545]I had said that passages from [now I will begin to speel correctly with the text in front of my eyes]Kerbrech would be better learned through their personal aquisition.I now feel compelled to change this.It may take awhile and several posts but I would like to post verbatum,the front page,the forward by Kerbrech,and the entire chapter on Ramener Outre,or exaggerated Ramener.Title page.
Faverot De Kerbrech
Methodical Training of the Saddle Horse
After the final teachings of F. Baucher collected by one of his pupils
Forward
The finalequestrian ideas of F. Baucher are little known.this illustrious horseman,after the terrible accident which broke both his legs,could no longer mount in public.He lived retired,and after 1861,gave very few courses.Of the few who followed them two or threeare still living.
On the other handbaucher,too old to puttogether in a single volume his diverse works,modified without cease by new discoveries,still managed to make known to the public a complete expose of the latest processes of training.He preferred for the most part to give general principles,contained in a few words,saying that itwas up to the professors taught directly at his school to show how to apply them in the thousand particular cases which are born in the practice.
The detailed lessons of this riding master,umknown,ignored,or disguised most of the time,were in danger of disappearing without leaving a trace.

More later.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista[/QUOTE]

Baucher technique is very tricky and can be dangerous. Sjef took it even further and it become even trickier and more dangerous in the not supper talented and supper skilled hands! B/c he keeps the hyper flexion with tensions of the reins for prolonged periods of time with no releases = no break for horses from continues, fixed flexions.

[Dressage_Art]

*** Baucher did flexions in every single directions, rollkur seems to focus on locking horse’s head to his chest for prolonged periods of time:

quote: “Flexions: “gradually we will try to lift the head and neck more gradually lifting the hands. In this way we will gradually arrive at a height that the horse gets used to carrying its head with.”

***Baucher released the rein tension as soon as the flexion was achieved by the rider. Rollkur keeps the hyper flexion with tensions of the reins for prolonged periods of time with no releases:

quote: “On the actions of the rider’s hands: “ when the rider pulls his hands backwards and upwards to lift the forehand he must put them gradually back as soon as the effect is obtained in order to release the primary tension in the reins.”

Some Baucher illustrations from google:

http://www.feinesreiten.net/attachments/Image/baucher_flexion_6.JPG
http://www.feinesreiten.net/attachments/Image/baucher_flexion_3.JPG
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how/baucher1.gif
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/M/Miesner_Susanne/Longshortdeep/Part1/Plate5&6.jpg
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/M/Miesner_Susanne/Longshortdeep/Part1/Plate1&2.jpg

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=fburton;4650883]
Statement from the British Horse Society. (Apologies if this has been posted here already.)

"Hyperflexion Statement

As the debate over the use of hyperflexion as a training technique continues, The British Horse Society’s policy may be stated as follows:

The British Horse Society strongly recommends that all riders training horses on the flat and over fences should adhere to the official instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation. Whilst we appreciate that horses are as individual as humans, and that some may require corrective schooling, the BHS’s stand on hyperflexion (by which we mean the extreme flexion of the horse’s head and neck beyond normal limits) remains clear: it is an unacceptable method of training horses by any rider for any length of time.

We recognise that the scientific evidence is conflicting, and likely to remain so as each party seeks determinedly to prove its case. For this reason we doubt that science will ever provide a single, clear, unambiguous and unarguable answer. It therefore falls to humans to do what the horses cannot, namely to follow the precautionary principle: as nature provides no evidence of horses choosing to move in hyperflexion for an extended period of time; and as hyperflexion can create tension in the horse’s neck and back which has no justifying necessity; and as the horse in hyperflexion is, by definition, unable fully to use its neck; and as the psychological consequences of such treatment remain latent (perhaps in an analogous position with horses which are whipped aggressively but which can still pass a five star vetting), we should take all appropriate steps to discourage the use of this training technique, for the horse’s sake."

http://www.bhs.org.uk/Press_Centre/BHS_News/Rollkur_Update.aspx[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this link. I really hope that USDF and USEF will issue similar statements.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4650961]
DA the sad possible truth(maybe it’s not sad not sure yet) you and those that think it is cruel will probably get what you want in the end. If the rather large group of you stay focused I have a feeling you will make a difference. Many are just angry that you are forcing the FEI to deal with this. If you don’t win this battle and you and the anti RK people stay together you will most likely win the war. They better hope PETA doesn’t get involved because if they set their sites on dressage I can bet you it will be yanked from the Olympics…that is one powerful sometimes horrible group.[/QUOTE]

Ridgeback, until, it’s clearly proven that rollkur is safe for all horses in hands of most riders = it shouldn’t be practiced in the public shows that are supported by the membership money. Those groups should not allow anything questionable in their shows, since it looks that they are supporting it. Rollkur should be banned from the warm up.

[ridgeback]

USDF Executive Board Statement on Animal Welfare

In response to a recent incident at an international competition, the USDF Executive Board has issued the following official statement:

The USDF does not approve of training techniques such as hyperflexion especially when taken to an extreme. While we recognize that we can not control how riders train at home, excessive techniques should not be tolerated at competitions. The USDF feels that it is very important that as a sport we police ourselves and encourage the USEF and FEI to call upon their licensed officials to ensure that cruel and abusive riding does not happen at our competitions.

The USDF agrees with and strongly supports the FEI position as stated in the November 17 press release and in particular the statement: “The FEI acknowledges and welcomes public opinion and will continue to ensure that the welfare of the horse, which has been central to this debate, will remain its absolute priority.”

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4651545]
I had said that passages from [now I will begin to speel correctly with the text in front of my eyes]Kerbrech would be better learned through their personal aquisition.I now feel compelled to change this.It may take awhile and several posts but I would like to post verbatum,the front page,the forward by Kerbrech,and the entire chapter on Ramener Outre,or exaggerated Ramener.Title page.
Faverot De Kerbrech
Methodical Training of the Saddle Horse
After the final teachings of F. Baucher collected by one of his pupils
Forward
The finalequestrian ideas of F. Baucher are little known.this illustrious horseman,after the terrible accident which broke both his legs,could no longer mount in public.He lived retired,and after 1861,gave very few courses.Of the few who followed them two or threeare still living.
On the other handbaucher,too old to puttogether in a single volume his diverse works,modified without cease by new discoveries,still managed to make known to the public a complete expose of the latest processes of training.He preferred for the most part to give general principles,contained in a few words,saying that itwas up to the professors taught directly at his school to show how to apply them in the thousand particular cases which are born in the practice.
The detailed lessons of this riding master,umknown,ignored,or disguised most of the time,were in danger of disappearing without leaving a trace.

More later.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista[/QUOTE]

DRR - THANK YOU for taking the time to post the book. I look forward to reading the next installment.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Kaeleer;4650858]
You do remember what horses look like, don’t you? And that there are people who RIDE them?[/QUOTE]Interestingly enough I do ride, I do show, I do own horses, and I do train my own horses. There are plenty of riders who ride, train and still not subscribe to rollkur methods.

But, if I understand you correctly, you are implying that a basis level rider can’t have an opinion about rollkur? Do you think that it’s only Olympic Level riders who can have an opinion about rollkur? Or the opinion of average riders are cancelled b/c of the opinions of Olympic level riders?

If so, I disagree with that.
For many people winning in Olympics doesn’t matter much and doesn’t bring much respect to some Olympic riders. There always was circus training that produced results quite closely to the art of the high school dressage.

It’s every day riders around us that represent Dressage. In my area we don’t have ANY, not even 1 Olympic rider, we hardly even have GP riders here and some got their GP scores on schoolmasters.

So you will have to talk to us, unwashed masses, who ride and own average horses and who support the US dressage sport with our membership and our volunteer hours.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4651805]
USDF Executive Board Statement on Animal Welfare

In response to a recent incident at an international competition, the USDF Executive Board has issued the following official statement:

The USDF does not approve of training techniques such as hyperflexion especially when taken to an extreme. While we recognize that we can not control how riders train at home, excessive techniques should not be tolerated at competitions. The USDF feels that it is very important that as a sport we police ourselves and encourage the USEF and FEI to call upon their licensed officials to ensure that cruel and abusive riding does not happen at our competitions.

The USDF agrees with and strongly supports the FEI position as stated in the November 17 press release and in particular the statement: “The FEI acknowledges and welcomes public opinion and will continue to ensure that the welfare of the horse, which has been central to this debate, will remain its absolute priority.”[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting that.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4651830]
Interestingly enough I do ride, I do show, I do own horses, and I do train my own horses. There are plenty of riders who ride, train and still not subscribe to rollkur methods.

But, if I understand you correctly, you are implying that a basis level rider can’t have an opinion about rollkur? Do you think that it’s only Olympic Level riders who can have an opinion about rollkur? Or the opinion of average riders are cancelled b/c of the opinions of Olympic level riders?

If so, I disagree with that.
For many people winning in Olympics doesn’t matter much and doesn’t bring much respect to some Olympic riders. There always was circus training that produced results quite closely to the art of the high school dressage.

It’s every day riders around us that represent Dressage. In my area we don’t have ANY, not even 1 Olympic rider, we hardly even have GP riders here and some got their GP scores on schoolmasters.

So you will have to talk to us, unwashed masses, who ride and own average horses and who support the US dressage sport with our membership and our volunteer hours.[/QUOTE]

Believe it or not, there is a curve to all learning, from a beginner, thru intermediate, more advanced and a few talented, dedicated well taught of the many will get to the top, helped with those masters that did get to the top before them.

I do believe and see clearly who is talking knowing what it feels to ride the more advanced horses and who is still just winging it on what they read and hear, but don’t really have the educated feel and eye, or the hands on technical expertise and experience on many horses to really understand.

There is no way to explain to some at the beginning, they just don’t get the whole picture, they just “don’t know how little they know”.
That is something many here just don’t get.:no:

Those judging and putting those horses at the top are seeing what many years climbing that education ladder has shown them.
Yes, they can make mistakes and there is some wiggle room in something that is subjective, but for the rest of us sitting behind a computer, armchair quarterbacks, to say what some say, well, if you ever get even close to that level and experience as a horseman, that alone will humble you.

Maybe that is the difference, you become humble the more you know, because then you realize how far you have come, how hard it is to be correct and how much you still have to accomplish, every day.

Yep, I don’t think that the average rider out there has an educated opinion here and it shows clearly they are not getting it.
I definitely don’t agree that training policy should be made with what all those beginners out there think, no matter how many papers they sign, that is absurd, but I guess that is the way it will be.

[ridgeback]

That was very interesting press release from the British horse society.

HSUS Releases Statement on Dressage Hyperflexion Video
by: Edited Press Release
November 25 2009, Article # 15348
Print Email Add to Favorites RSS ShareThis
The Humane Society of the United States, has issued a statement concerning a recent Internet video depicting Swedish Olympic rider, Patrik Kittel, riding his stallion, Watermill Scandic, is a state of hyperflexion (known by some in the dressage world as “rollkur”) during warm-up at the Odense World Cup competition in Denmark.

“While no representative of The Humane Society of the United States witnessed the incident depicted in the video of Kittel and his stallion from the Odense World Cup, the images in the video are deeply troubling,” said Holly Hazard, The HSUS’ chief innovations officer. “We are pleased to see that the international governing body of equestrian sport, The Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI), is investigating. If warranted, we urge the FEI to take appropriate disciplinary action against both Kittel and the ring stewards at the show who failed to act on Watermill Scandic’s behalf.”

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4651965]
That was very interesting press release from the British horse society.

HSUS Releases Statement on Dressage Hyperflexion Video
by: Edited Press Release
November 25 2009, Article # 15348
Print Email Add to Favorites RSS ShareThis
The Humane Society of the United States, has issued a statement concerning a recent Internet video depicting Swedish Olympic rider, Patrik Kittel, riding his stallion, Watermill Scandic, is a state of hyperflexion (known by some in the dressage world as “rollkur”) during warm-up at the Odense World Cup competition in Denmark.

“While no representative of The Humane Society of the United States witnessed the incident depicted in the video of Kittel and his stallion from the Odense World Cup, the images in the video are deeply troubling,” said Holly Hazard, The HSUS’ chief innovations officer. “We are pleased to see that the international governing body of equestrian sport, The Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI), is investigating. If warranted, we urge the FEI to take appropriate disciplinary action against both Kittel and the ring stewards at the show who failed to act on Watermill Scandic’s behalf.”[/QUOTE]

Honestly!

You realize that the president of the HSUS said many years ago: “One generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me” and meant it, as his life’s work has been that of an animal right’s fanatic.:eek: