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Do you practice Rollkur?

Dressage
#21

alicen, I agree. Impossible to ask civil questions or have a discussion about this training continuem: Deep>>>>>>RK/Hyperflexion.

The term Rollkur/Hyperflexion has come to encompass any deliberate BTV position of the head or “deep” positioning method all the way to the “chin strapped to the chest” extreme method.

Ordinary “deep” positioning is one of the tools that many pros/upper level/elite riders use to work with certain horses.

Is it any wonder that people who use deep training feel they will be hung out to dry as a “rollerkurist” and get defensive?

So, perhaps more clarity regarding the terms Deep vs. Rollkur /Hyperflexion?

It would be interesting to learn more about the benefits vs. bad side effects of both deep training and RK/HF.
Because, to my way of thinking we are discussing apples and oranges here:
Deep vs. RK/HF.

#22

The definition of the difference between pornography and eroticism is that porn is considerd to be “exploitive”, which, although still subjective to a point, at least tries to define the difference.

Secondly, I think the internet is an excellent method of discussion. As far as people’s comments getting out of control on the net … well, they are just hiding that type of nasty behavior when in public because, quite frankly, it makes them out to be the jerks they really are which really is not all that socially acceptable. I believe some of it falls under “anti-social” behavior. I know that I can be anti-social under certain circumstances, but at least I know it, and I try to keep it down to a dull roar.

#23

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4640389]
The definition of the difference between pornography and eroticism is that porn is considerd to be “exploitive”, which, although still subjective to a point, at least tries to define the difference.

Not giving an opinion, just for academic discussion can we differentiate good or bad training methods based on the exploitation of the horse? Or does all training to some degree exploit the horse?

#24

I have a majickal spotted unicorn who shits golden butterflies, and I rollkur the hell outta that pony. Did I mention it’s 18 months old? But super mature and developed. Because of all the corn I feed it. And I have Linda Parelli help me teach it games.

:lol:

#25

HAHAHAHA!

Be verrry, verrry careful doing RK on a Unicorn!

#26

so, here is an honest question: for those that suggest just riding your own horse as best you can and not getting vocal about certain “issues” …

how exactly do you think that is going to affect change?

or do you not think change is needed?

#27

I think RK is just fine, as long as you’ve de-horned your Unicorn.

RK on a Unicorn with its horn intact is just inviting terrible rollover accidents.

No, your question is not “honest”. It’s just More Of The Same.

#28

[QUOTE=claire;4640374]
alicen, I agree. Impossible to ask civil questions or have a discussion about this training continuem: Deep>>>>>>RK/Hyperflexion. [/QUOTE]
Yes I see that now from the continues comic replies from some people. I personally dont find force and dominance with horses funny.

I dont really want this conversation to be sidelined to be Deep ver RollKur. I had this conversation already and even created illustrations for it. I think there is a very distinct line between Deep and Rollkur. I am fine with seeing Deep training at the show warm-ups but it makes me sick to see RollKur at the show warm-ups.

I dont know personally anybody who uses RollKur, so I cant ask my questions directly. Im hoping that somebody here who uses RollKur (not only read and saw it) can answer my questions.

But again, I strongly believe that Deep is NOT the same as RollKur. SP trains Deep. Anky trains RollKur. The difference is huge! I know people who train Deep and talked with them about that training method and it is NOT the same as RollKur

#29

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4639742]
And I’m disappointed that you are not voicing your opinion for the welfare of the horse. Rollkur is not banned at the warm-up yet, but it should be, so it’s not discussed enough yet.

I’m trying to find out! So who is this Rollkurista? How many do we have here? How far did Rollkur take them/you?

If people who are supporting/arguing in favor of Rollkur, stand for their training methods = they will not have any issues of answering those questions.

If they/you do not practice Rollkur = why do you support and argue in favor of Rollkur?

Are you ashamed to admit that you practice Rollkur?[/QUOTE]

Wow. I have voiced my opinion. On one of the many other threads about this subject. I am not in favor of Rollkur, At All, have never used it and never will.

#30

[QUOTE=Amaii;4640232]
Tineke Bartel’s book “Ride horses with awareness and feel” discusses the Dutch training method if you want to learn more about it. I do however think that “rollkur” is presented in a rather mild form in the book, but it is a good read and explains the whole training method quite well.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I got it and read it. But it presents RollKur as Deep method and while I would agree with the book if we were talking about Deep, I think the book is not quite honest if its really talks about RollKur.

Again I have no issue with the Deep work that SP trains with.

#31

[QUOTE=rodawn;4640655]
Wow. I have voiced my opinion. On one of the many other threads about this subject. I am not in favor of Rollkur, At All, have never used it and never will.[/QUOTE]
You gave me an impression that you tried to sweep RollKur subject under the rug? Why?

If you are not a supporter of RollKur and if you are not training with this method, why you are trying to stop people who are trying to put a stop to that method? You are giving more power to the supporters and to followers of RollKur by doing that.

#32

DA, I believe you are attempting to use “force and dominance” on anyone who is not in lockstep with you.

It is a slippery slope between Deep and Rollkur. Who decides when Deep slips into the abusive realm of RK? This IS one of the long-standing issues that was being discussed even 20 or more years ago. Only then, the term RK wasn’t invented – it was just Deep.

I am not “pro-Rollkur”, but I am rapidly becoming “anti-DA”. You are so far over the top on this, you risk driving away rational support for your position.

“When did you stop beating your wife?”

“When did you stop Rollkuring your horse?”

Even an innocent person comes away with smudges of guilt, no matter how those questions are answered. Which was your intent.

#33

Oh, I see. “If you are not with us, you are against us.”

What if I decide I just don’t like you and don’t want to be associated with any cause you deem worthwhile? While I may be in agreement that Rollkur is ugly and harsh, I will not jump on your bandwagon.

I don’t want to be that close to you. Do you see how you’re alienating people from both yourself and your cause?

#34

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4640705]
I am rapidly becoming “anti-DA”.[/QUOTE]Beasmom, I am prepared that standing up for the welfare of the horse will bring some personal attacks. I did that before. So I’m not surprised on your expected responses.

Nobody is twisting your arm to open, to read, or to respond to the thread about RollKur. And it was YOU by the way, who gave me an idea for this thread. I posted your quote above as well. So you have nobody to blame for that thread but yourself.

Please stop polluting my thread. If you have nothing informative to say about RollKur subject, please restrain yourself from the written diarrhea.

#35

So, if you are saying that “DEEP” is what Tineke is describing in her book, then exactly what is “ROLLKUR”?

A popular local “r” judge was at Achen and claims that SP was warming up in rollkur.

#36

That’s the problem. When does Deep become RK? This is the source of all the sturm und drang. No one can satisfactorily define that tipping point. There will always be (violent) disagreements.

So DA and MBM et al can keep beating this subject to death but will never reach a conclusion that everyone can agree on. And so they will go on and on and on…

So, to make peace with the Rollkurmaniacs, I hereby pledge to always ride my horses inverted so that no one could ever accuse me of riding them in RK. Inversion Conversion!

All hail Rollkurmania!

(The national flag of Rollkurmania is run up the flagpole and patriotic music plays in the background…)

#37

“Inversion Conversion” :slight_smile: Maybe we should get us some non-white hats:)

#38

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4640705]
DA, I believe you are attempting to use “force and dominance” on anyone who is not in lockstep with you.
.[/QUOTE]

Ah, you mean she is trying to rolkur you? Incomfortable isn’it?

#39

Yeah, but it’s hard to do through the internet!

#40

Oh please. At least in the video of the warm-up that has been available on YouTube, no reasonable person could call that hyperflexion. An “r” judge who would do so is being just as inflammatory as some of you accusing DA of stirring the hornet’s nest. Unless the judge is referring to something other than what is available for viewing on YouTube right now.

I think that hyperflexion very much falls under the same “you know it when you see it” as pornography. Hyperflexion is over-flexing the horse to a point that their throatlatch is closed and their nose is near or on their chest and the rider is using their body as leverage to hold the horse in that position for an extended period of time (more than 2-3 strides).

Any horse being ridden deep or long and low can momentarily come a little too closed, but in the video of Steffan’s warm-up it is clear that the horse is being encouraged to reach forward and be open, as evidence by how often there is a loop in the reins. On the contrary, Scandic is being asked to be as closed as possible and Kittel is using his body as leverage to hold the horse in a position of severe over-flexion. Scandic’s nose might momentarily poke out, but he is corrected to bring it in closer to his chest.

Any “r” judge who thinks these are even remotely similar riding and training styles would be crossed off my list of prospective judges.

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