If you are not a supporter of RollKur and if you are not training with this method, why you are trying to stop people who are trying to put a stop to that method? You are giving more power to the supporters and to followers of RollKur by doing that.
“followers of rollkur”?:eek:
Someone has truly gone off the rails on the crazy train.
[QUOTE=caddym;4640850]
So, if you are saying that “DEEP” is what Tineke is describing in her book, then exactly what is “ROLLKUR”?[/QUOTE]
No, I’m saying that Tineke seems to present Rollkur as Deep method in her book. And that is quite confusing since they are 2 different methods.
The excuse that smart and educated people who are capable to give “invisible” 1/2 an inch aids to their horses > can’t come to the agreement on where is the line between Rollkur and Deep = is quite a lame excuse.
We can talk about timing: no more than 30-60 seconds of prolonged forced closed neck.
We can talk about distance and proximity of the nose to the chest: about 1 foot distance should be percent between the chest of the horse and the nose of the horse.
We can talk about range/angle of the horse’s head compare to the ground.
We already have similar rule that the nose of the horse should be slightly above the vertical. Similar rule can be clearly put regarding the nose of the horse behind the vertical.
I don’t know the specifics, it should be discussed and come to the golden middle, but I strongly believe that it is about time now that USEF needs to address that at their shows. Especially if people (judges?) are having a hard time differentiating between SP training and Anky’s training.
This is what some people defending:
This is RollKur:
http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/20076/images/Rollkur.jpg
http://dressage.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/rollkur3.jpg
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/207239.jpg
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/schrijer/366_6704.jpg
http://gachristi.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/rollkur.jpg
http://www.eurodressage.com/images/news_hap_rollkur-sali.jpg
http://www.cordequestrian.net/images/Rollkur1.jpg
http://epona.tv/uploads/pics/nyhed_cae71b.jpg
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how/nijmegen_lvl.gif
http://weblog.dierenbescherming.nl/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/rollkur.jpg
http://www.hundkatzpferd.at/rollkur1.jpg
http://www.equichannel.cz/data/imgs/00022593l.gif
http://www.fei.org/Media/News_Centre/News/PublishingImages/D0148.jpg
http://www.eurodressage.com/images/news_dr_power.jpg
http://www.nobynas.se/roll.jpg
http://www.cheval-savoir.com/images/5/roll-kur-1.jpg
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how/1020109.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zTe7JGS3eRE/SAb6ObeKayI/AAAAAAAAAJo/vZnAfx0vxos/s1600-h/tn_img893.jpg
http://cincily.cz/rollkur/how/st_georg_nicole.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k&feature=player_embedded
This is what Beasmom, Egontoast, etc are trying to hush and avoid talking about, avoid bringing those photos up, and attacking people who do.
If you do not support that, if you do not ride/train like that, why do you try so hard to hush it out?
No one’s “defending” it. They’re just not on board with your hysteria. Seriously, DA, go out and get some fresh air!
Beasmom… an interesting thing i have learned about posting on BBs (or any kind of argument)…
the more someone has to defend their position the more “loud” they will get. Especially if they are being attacked from many sides or if they are being character assasinated.
so… what that means is someone can post a normal comment and yet it can turn into a very emotional debate - and the poster can seem much more “hysterical” as you say than they really are - just because they are having to defend themselves from many angles and from personal attacks.
in other words… if you (and others not to be named that are on ignore) would stop attacking people, the topics would not get so heated. But i get the idea that folks like to attack and they like to see the tumult that is the result.
(btw Beasmom… you have posted 9 times on this thread alone - so i think you are a honorary member of “Rollkurmaniacs”!!!) <— gentle teasing
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4641208]
No one’s “defending” it. They’re just not on board with your hysteria. Seriously, DA, go out and get some fresh air![/QUOTE]They? “They” can answer for themselves. You answer for yourself. And from where I’m sitting, you are trying very hard to shut ANYBODY who questions RollKur.
Seriously, I’m not twisting your arm to read or even open any Rollkur threads; it seems that you have a desire continually dismiss any concerns about Rollkur. Yet, I know more people who want to put an end to RollKur, including judges. Than people who support rollKur and who want to hush it out, close their eyes, ears, and mouths.
After a video of Blue Tongue I think it is very clear that we need more control over the horse’s welfare during the warm-up at the shows.
DA, life is better with certain folks on “ignore” - try it… it makes for a much more peaceful COTH.
Yes, if you can’t bear for anyone to have an opinion that is not in line with your own and if you can’t handle any kind of debate without flying off the handle then, yes, please do use the ignore function.
Your life will be better and you will also be doing a large favour to the objects of your diatribes.
ROFLMAO!!!
But seriously…de-horning my unicorn? So it’s a zerocorn? Or a noncorn? YOU’RE SO ABUSIVE! How dare you suggest I MUTILATE my gold butterfly pooping Roll-Korn?
:lol:
[QUOTE=egontoast;4641299]
Yes, if you can’t bear for anyone to have an opinion that is not in line with your own and if you can’t handle any kind of debate without flying off the handle then, yes, please do use the ignore function.
Your life will be better and you will also be doing a large favour to the objects of your diatribes.[/QUOTE]
Hi my dear stalker! Following me around? Or you have any useful input to my RK questions? No? that’s what I thought!
You life will be better with the 12 step program, when you’ll stop obsessing about me 
I must say, I tend to agree with this.
My biggest problem with rollkur is not that it’s abuse - I’m not sure it is severe enough to fall into that category, though “abuse” as the FEI describes it could potentially encompass rollkur (it’s a very vague and sweeping description).
My biggest problem with rollkur is that it is as opposite to dressage as draw reins are. I don’t consider Anky and the others that use rollkur as bad (most of them are really quite excellent) or abusive horse trainers. I think part of the reason they can use rollkur and still turnout such spectacular horses is that they are excellent trainers. I think they’ve just been so close to the rollkur issue that they’ve gotten used to seeing it and using it. Very prominent people have presented it as okay in their world, and they’ve gotten good results, so they continue to use it.
This is why we need the public to continue to voice their opinions that the method is “unsavory” or “harsh” when compared to the end goal of dressage without it turning into a witch hunt. Anky and the like are probably actually really good people and trainers that really love their horses, so enough with that.
However, I think that many of these trainers that use rollkur would have initially been very turned off by the appearance of this method if they’d first seen it done by someone of less renown than themselves… Rollkur is a shortcut just like all those other “gimmicks” and “gadgets” that the vast majority of dressage people like to denounce. Perhaps useful in a rare case but generally a tool to be left in the shed unless all else fails - certainly not something that should be necessary at a show. I don’t need scientific studies to know that I don’t like this method being used in dressage training, just like I haven’t needed studies to show me that certain trainers I’ve worked with or watched work in the past are not quite the horse people they claim to be.
While I agree that it’s difficult to put a specific definition on what is rollkur and what is just deep in a way that will please the masses, I don’t think it’s hard for most horse people to “know it when they see it.” There are many methods in other disciplines that aren’t outright illegal but that are frowned upon to the point that you don’t see them practiced at shows. That’s where rollkur belongs (again, I liken it to the horror most dressage folks would show if someone trotted into the warm up in draw reins, though they actually are illegal…) Obviously I’d prefer it not be used behind closed doors either, but if the public can make it known that it’s a method that is really inappropriate in the context of dressage, we will start to see less of it out in the open and eventually less of it at home as well. That’s enough for me for now until the FEI can have continued intelligent discussions about the issue.
I agree that emotion needs to be left out of this, it only weakens the arguments of both sides. However, I don’t think it’s just the very vocal anti-RK people that are guilty of this.
[QUOTE=mbm;4641278]
DA, life is better with certain folks on “ignore” - try it… it makes for a much more peaceful COTH.
:)[/QUOTE]
Yes, they seems to follow around to every post and thread to just derail it and inject their own agendas.
If you are so sure about your views, why does one or two people ridiculing you or the thread, or what is more usual, simply disagreeing with you, create this type of reaction?
Again: if you’re going to bitch about it, would you at least please spell it correctly? It is “rollkur.” Not “Roll kur,” not “RollKur,” etc. If it is too difficult, “hyperflexion” also works (note that it, too, is a single word). Thank you. Have a nice day.
Ok, allow me to rephrase my questions:
Do you practice rollkur?
Where did you learn rollkur?
How did you learn rollkur?
What did rollkur do for your horses?
May be a correct spelling will bring some useful and insightful answers from people who actually support, ride, train, teach rollkur?
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4641192]
If you do not support that, if you do not ride/train like that, why do you try so hard to hush it out?[/QUOTE]
If you are indifferent to the subject of rollkur, why do you bother posting on this thread?
B/c I’m not really interested in reading responses from people who can’t even pick a side pro or against, or from people who are just “sick” of hearing about rollkur, since that what I consider bitching with no results.
[QUOTE=bort84;4641371]
Very prominent people have presented it as okay in their world, and they’ve gotten good results, so they continue to use it.
This is why we need the public to continue to voice their opinions that the method is “unsavory” or “harsh” when compared to the end goal of dressage without it turning into a witch hunt. Anky and the like are probably actually really good people and trainers that really love their horses, so enough with that.
…
Rollkur is a shortcut just like all those other “gimmicks” and “gadgets” that the vast majority of dressage people like to denounce.
…
I agree that emotion needs to be left out of this, it only weakens the arguments of both sides. However, I don’t think it’s just the very vocal anti-RK people that are guilty of this.[/QUOTE]
I agree. My biggest concern is that rollkur is gaining popularity and it can be seen in the wrong hands now, such as blue tongue. This is a very clear call of denouncing it and not allowing it to be practiced and advertised during the legal shows and competitions.
Even posters who claim not to practice rollkur, but who want to hush the conversations about rollkur = even they (to put in their own words) compare it to the “wife beating”.
[QUOTE=Beasmom;4639678]This is like asking, “When did you stop beating your wife?”
Pffffft.[/QUOTE]
Posted by Beasmom:
RK on a Unicorn with its horn intact is just inviting terrible rollover accidents.
That’s a rotational fall, you need to be over in the eventer threads :lol:
DA, I fear you do not read for comprehension. I never equated Rollkur with wife-beating.
The question, “When did you stop beating your wife?” is an oft-repeated example of a question that cannot be answered by anyone without raising suspicions of guilt or lying. The question assumes the person asked HAS beaten his wife at some time. Guilt is implied before the question is even answered.
The question is a trap, as was your opening post, although yours is a very clumsy trap. No one’s stupid enough to fall for it. There are a few folks here ready to take you to task for such baiting. I believe you try to imply that those who do not ride the anti-Rollkur train with you are therefore guilty of practicing Rollkur. At the very least, their zeal to ban Rollkur does not match your own, therefore they are wrong. Wrong, I tell you!
That’s quite a jump in logic. This discussion isn’t going the way you wanted it to, and you’re upset. Perhaps rethink your approach; I don’t know. I’m the last person you’d take advice from. All I can tell you is, shrill approaches, no matter what the subject is, gets tiresome.
And that is why (for the last time) I do what I can within my realm of influence to promote correct riding. If that doesn’t suit you, DA, it’s not my problem. It’s your problem, allowing this discussion to get under your skin so.
You started this train down the tracks. Is it time to pull it over to the next siding?
amazed that this is still going…you are obviously not reading the worthwhile books, watching the worthwhile riders and experimenting while riding with awareness and responsibility…
When this topic was posted I was thinking it would die off quickly in like 4-5 posts.
The fact that it hasn’t leads me to believe that COTH serves a whole different purpose altogether…relieving female frustrations of all sorts…mainly to do with lack of ability to execute, perceived injustice, misdirected need to save the world and such.
Nothing to do with riding better, …sadly!
Give me a break. The oft-used example you site bears no resemblance whatsoever to the question that DA posed. As you say, the “beating your wife” example assumes guilt and whichever way you answer you are being trapped into admitting guilt.
DA asked a simple yes or no question. I have zero problems answer: No, I do not practice rollkur or hyperflexion. There is nothing trappy about it. Those whose answer would be yes might not want to answer because they don’t want to get dragged into a mud slinging contest, but the question is absolutely a fair one.
Now if DA had asked “How long have you been using rollkur”, then you’d have an argument about a trappy question.
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