Do you practice Rollkur?

[Karoline]

[QUOTE=DQtrainer;4656500]
Noooooo, don’t close it because this is the only way DA can get her information to become a judge. :lol:[/QUOTE]

This laughable. DA is well respected in her community and she did very well on a horse she trained to PSG, showed 4th level very respectably before a grave injury to the horse. This is on a horse that she was told would top out at 2nd.

And her mare is round, certainly never inverted and looking at the star. All you have to do is go on her website to see pics. What are you talking about?

She is exactly what dressage is about. The ironic thing is she used to be one of those folks who thought some of us were too emotional over this issue because as a serious rider she understood that you train toward an ideal but along the way sometimes you are a bit deep and that is OK.

I find it sad that she is been attack by people she probably at one time thought were her friends, but I also encouraged to see that she is so passionate now about this issue she was moderate on before. It gives me hope that other serious riders out there will look at the videos, the photos, the available data and say no. not acceptable to treat an animal that way.

[Karoline]

[QUOTE=mbm;4656916]
i am just really curious… the videos i posted were mostly of Anky… at warmups at FEI events being coached by Sjef.

are you saying that in all the videos there are of Anky riding what you call “bad riding and not rollkur” that she is making errors and isnt riding well? that she isnt capable of riding rollkur (her and sjefs invention) well?

if that is the case - what do you call what she is doing?

because THAT is what we are talking about… not deep, not a little btv, but what is clearly shown in those (many videos )…[/QUOTE]

Are the Dutch going to throw Sjeff and Anky under the bus and hail Gal as the LDR king? That ist the question. Looks like it, dont it?

What I find interresting is how like a school of fish you all are. Rollkur good, rollkur good, woooosh rollkur not LDR wooosh rollkur bad wwooooosh LDR good… give me a break.

[hitchinmygetalong]

After giving this much thought, I felt compelled to come onto this thread and thank the OP, Dressage Arts, for starting it.

I’ve read every post - more than once - and now that I am more familiar with what LDR/rollkur is, I can see where it might be a valuable aide in helping a horse use its body better. I almost see it as a kind of “yoga for horses.” Although I am not nearly educated enough to use it, I won’t go off the deep end if I see anyone using LDR/rollkur in a warm up or at a training session.

Thanks for education!

[Karoline]

On what planet is this beneficial to the horse?

http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid=30505592&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=285476607441&aid=-1&id=1116986895&fbid=1206210231533

[fburton]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4656582]
Nobody here says it is any of those things. No one here defends the extreme form, but most see benefits in LDR in moderation. LDR may become blackened simply because it is the moderate and reasonable “cousin” of RK. The good twin, if you will.[/QUOTE]
Just to be clear… Is this considered to be the extreme form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4656527]
Gosh you would love to dismiss me as a keyboard rider, but again, I showed FEI at the age of 16 and then trained 2 horses to PSG (and many others till 3rd level). Broke my tailbone training a baby horse when I worked as trainer’s assistant, so I had my share of sweat and manure, not only keyboard.

Yes, I did go thru basic judging program, and was smart enough to graduate with distinction, so I have a very clear understanding what is “slightly Behind the Vertical” what is “Broken in the 3rd vertebra” what is “curled” what is “Deep” and what is “rollkur”.

Until, it’s clearly proven that rollkur is safe for all horses in hands of most riders, rollkur should not be practiced at the member endorsed competitions and show grounds. Rollkur as a controversial, unproven horse friendly training method does not belong at the public show competitions for everybody to see and to potentially dangerously copy. Rollkur is not a good example of Dressage Training for the inspiring beginner or average dressage enthusiasts. Rollkur is not a good example of dressage training to Dressage Sport newcomers or onlookers. Rollkur is not the horse friendly and average rider friendly training method. Rollkur should be regulated at the show warm-up just like gag bits, draw reins and other controversial training methods.[/QUOTE]

That is right down scary, that someone can say they have been that far, is maybe some day going to be judging and having an impact on dressage and still can only have positions on this topic as unprofessional as saying they have the moral ground and all others are horse abusers that don’t care at all for their horses and should be punished.:eek:

I thought the first requirement of anyone going to be a judge was not only knowing what they were judging, but also that they were impartial and would weigh in what is relevant.

Personal opinions should never be relevant to judging, I thought, but maybe the world is changing that much and today judges can carry agendas, even divisive ones.
Too sad.

[slc2]

I don’t think all judges are like that ‘today’.

We can argue about the percentages but there will always be at every job people who:

1.) do an average job and make a fair amount of mistakes
2.) do a noticeably poor job and make more mistakes
3.) do a better job and make fewer mistakes

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=hitchinmygetalong;4657019]
After giving this much thought, I felt compelled to come onto this thread and thank the OP, Dressage Arts, for starting it.

I’ve read every post - more than once - and now that I am more familiar with what LDR/rollkur is, I can see where it might be a valuable aide in helping a horse use its body better. I almost see it as a kind of “yoga for horses.” Although I am not nearly educated enough to use it, I won’t go off the deep end if I see anyone using LDR/rollkur in a warm up or at a training session.

Thanks for education![/QUOTE]

That is where I am headed also.
I started with JEEZ, what are they DOING THERE!:eek: when I saw that here and there a few years ago.
If you had asked me, I too would have said BTV, horrible, heretics, will ruin their horses, etc, etc.:no:

After learning more, I am starting to think, not only that those at the top doing it and winning know what they are doing, that their horses are not directly harmed, OBVIOUSLY to anyone looking, since they go on to perform at the top, time and again and that maybe, maybe I need to learn more and offer other than a clueless knee jerk reaction.

Well stated, thank you.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=slc2;4657080]
I don’t think all judges are like that ‘today’.

We can argue about the percentages but there will always be at every job people who:

1.) do an average job and make a fair amount of mistakes
2.) do a noticeably poor job and make more mistakes
3.) do a better job and make fewer mistakes[/QUOTE]

Sorry, anyone that states they won’t ride in a warm up ring if someone is using RK, or quit the discipline if the powers that be don’t ban it, in my humble opinion, are not judge material, poor, medium or good.

I think that, no matter how someone feels about an issue, if they are true professionals, they will study all postitions on that issue and then have professional reasons to stand behind their opinions and won’t threaten or much less say such things.

I thought in a warm up ring you were only supposed to care for your horse and what you were to do, not judge everyone else and not ride if you didn’t like how they trained.
That is really unprofessional of any rider or trainer and really, to me, seems absurd.

[slc2]

As you have probably discovered, not everyone agrees with you.

I think some people ‘hate rollkur’ out of a good place in their hearts, and I have respect for that. I don’t agree with extreme hysterics, though, either. There are better ways to change the world than having a tantrum.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=slc2;4657110]
As you have probably discovered, not everyone agrees with you.

I think some people ‘hate rollkur’ out of a good place in their hearts, and I have respect for that. I don’t agree with extreme hysterics, though, either. There are better ways to change the world than having a tantrum.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that.
I not only agree, I know some really are passionate in their anti RK position and mean well, maybe it is the artistic temperament.
I wish they would not keep saying others not against RK are horse abusers.

I am familiar about the process to train and approve judges in the AQHA and maybe there they follow different protocols than in the dressage federation, but just to become an AQHA judge you have to be known as a level headed professional above any reproach.

I may be wrong, I but wonder if someone so over the top passionate about RK, that has stated what has been posted, would be an even handed judge, if it thought someone or the horse showing may have trained with some RK.
I guess that, even if it is for me to question, definitely not for me to judge.
I am just doing that, questioning.:yes:

[fburton]

@Bluey;4657165

I wish they would not keep saying others not against RK are horse abusers.

I don’t think anyone has said that, have they?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=fburton;4657182]
I don’t think anyone has said that, have they?[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes, again and again, or as much, by statements like those at the top don’t care for their horses, only the money and so on.

If you have not noticed that yet, maybe now you will, once aware of that undercurrent, the anti RK ones getting on a high ethical horse again and again.

I don’t think we are yet where we can say if RK is that kind of abuse some are saying it is, that is my point.

[fburton]

Saying that RK is, or can be, abusive is not the same as saying people not against RK are horses abusers. Someone may not be against RK and yet not use it themselves.

This may seem like a subtle point, but it makes the difference between accusing lots of people here of being abusers and accusing no one (or maybe one or two) here of being an abuser.

So: I understand you are not against RK, but I don’t think you abuse horses.

And, of course, there are different shades of abuse and abusers - some are clearly worse than others.

Language matters.

[Moderator_1]

As we’ve had to continue to intervene on this thread and the discussion continues to go 'round and 'round, we’re closing it.

Thanks,
Mod 1