Do you practice Rollkur?

[Dressage_Art]

What I think is that rollkur riders are trying to hide behind the Deep Method and call it a “variation of rollkur”. I’m quite surprised that the Deep Method riders are not defending their method, since Deep Method will get a bad name as well if it will be associated with rollkur. But I can see how it’s beneficial to rollkur to mud the waters and lump rollkur and Deep Method together. Who would argue with suppling the horse and with bringing its back up for a more swing and relaxation?

Who would argue with “truisms”? But the problem is that you can try to wrap the rollkur in the shiny wrapper and try to present it with a truism phrases that is it good for the horse = but not everybody will buy it. On the contrary, I think horse people are smart enough to see thru it. They will question why rollkur can’t stand on its own? Why rollkur needs to be lumped together with the Deep Method? To soften the presentation and visual impact?

But if some people say that rollkur and “Slightly Behind the Vertical” is the same thing = it’s just laughable. Since “Slightly Behind the Vertical” is not a training method, but a head carriage or evasion.

Same as Deep Method is not equal of a horse who is braking in the 3rd vertebra. One is a training method and another on is evasion and a fault.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=DQtrainer;4656376]
The last time somebody posted clips of Reiner Klimke you also called it Rollkür. How is your judge study going ?[/QUOTE]

That is a lie. I never called Klimke riding Rollkur.
I always wonder why people post such blunt lies? You know that you are lying and you feel good about it? Or you are just trying poke me to get a raise from me? Grow up!

Oh, as it already was posted by MP, I finished my “L” with Distinction 3 years ago already.

[Dressage_Art]

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/fei/2009/rollkurdebate.html

Holmes continued stressing the gravity of the matter. “This is an enormous affair, ten thousands of hits on the internet from all over the world and emails sent to our sponsors which order them no longer to sponsor the FEI or the equestrian sport,” Holmes disclosed. “This seriously damages dressage and the image of the entire sport. We must see to the underlying questions, which means the rollkur as training method. Trainers and riders can say that we react to what happens on the Internet and social forums, but we would be dumb if we didn’t do so. Trainers and riders must understand that they must be cleaner than clean.”

[siegi_b]

I think it’s time to close this thread by not responding anymore… Seems to me that DA and mbmb are doing most of the postings anyway.

Talk about circular arguments…

[ThreeFigs]

Yeppers, Siegi. Beyond pointless. I tried.

[Geneva]

@Dressage Art;4656406

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/fei/2009/rollkurdebate.html

Holmes continued stressing the gravity of the matter. “This is an enormous affair, ten thousands of hits on the internet from all over the world and emails sent to our sponsors which order them no longer to sponsor the FEI or the equestrian sport,” Holmes disclosed. “This seriously damages dressage and the image of the entire sport. We must see to the underlying questions, which means the rollkur as training method. Trainers and riders can say that we react to what happens on the Internet and social forums, but we would be dumb if we didn’t do so. Trainers and riders must understand that they must be cleaner than clean.”

It’s worth noting he got fired a few weeks later.

[DQtrainer]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;4656413]
I think it’s time to close this thread by not responding anymore… Seems to me that DA and mbmb are doing most of the postings anyway.

Talk about circular arguments… :)[/QUOTE]

Noooooo, don’t close it because this is the only way DA can get her information to become a judge. :lol:

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=DQtrainer;4656500]
Noooooo, don’t close it because this is the only way DA can get her information to become a judge. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Gosh you would love to dismiss me as a keyboard rider, but again, I showed FEI at the age of 16 and then trained 2 horses to PSG (and many others till 3rd level). Broke my tailbone training a baby horse when I worked as trainer’s assistant, so I had my share of sweat and manure, not only keyboard.

Yes, I did go thru basic judging program, and was smart enough to graduate with distinction, so I have a very clear understanding what is “slightly Behind the Vertical” what is “Broken in the 3rd vertebra” what is “curled” what is “Deep” and what is “rollkur”.

Until, it’s clearly proven that rollkur is safe for all horses in hands of most riders, rollkur should not be practiced at the member endorsed competitions and show grounds. Rollkur as a controversial, unproven horse friendly training method does not belong at the public show competitions for everybody to see and to potentially dangerously copy. Rollkur is not a good example of Dressage Training for the inspiring beginner or average dressage enthusiasts. Rollkur is not a good example of dressage training to Dressage Sport newcomers or onlookers. Rollkur is not the horse friendly and average rider friendly training method. Rollkur should be regulated at the show warm-up just like gag bits, draw reins and other controversial training methods.

[ThreeFigs]

Nobody here says it is any of those things. No one here defends the extreme form, but most see benefits in LDR in moderation. LDR may become blackened simply because it is the moderate and reasonable “cousin” of RK. The good twin, if you will.

I’ll repeat: Don’t throw the LDR baby out with the RK bathwater.

Everything in moderation, DA. Everything.

[MySparrow]

[QUOTE=andalusia;4655023]
My Sparrow: Theo, who is Theo who is Theo who is Cocktail, posted a link to a Facebook Group. That thread was deleted. But here is the link again. You might want to visit it and read the wallposts and view the fotos.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=285476607441QUOTE]

Okay, I visited it, and found this quote from Pia Munck:

EVERY BODY CAN LEARN HOW TO USE IT !

AND ALL HORSES CAN BENEFIT FROM IT !

Given the many times that it has been said here that rollkur/hyperflexion is for top riders and top horses – given that Anky vG herself said this emphatically in that oft-quoted interview – how do we feel about this?

[ThreeFigs]

Who’s “we”?

[MySparrow]

^ :lol: I guess I meant all of us, since the one thing that we all seem to agree on is that RK/hyperflexion is a technique to be used for top horses by top riders.

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=MySparrow;4656589EVERY BODY CAN LEARN HOW TO USE IT !

AND ALL HORSES CAN BENEFIT FROM IT !

Given the many times that it has been said here that rollkur/hyperflexion is for top riders and top horses – given that Anky vG herself said this emphatically in that oft-quoted interview – how do we feel about this?[/QUOTE]

Very good- thank you very much- get with it- learn it, read up and be super fit…then you’ve got a chance…haha!!

[DQtrainer]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4656527]
Gosh you would love to dismiss me as a keyboard rider, but again, I showed FEI at the age of 16 and then trained 2 horses to PSG (and many others till 3rd level). Broke my tailbone training a baby horse when I worked as trainer’s assistant, so I had my share of sweat and manure, not only keyboard.

Yes, I did go thru basic judging program, and was smart enough to graduate with distinction, so I have a very clear understanding what is “slightly Behind the Vertical” what is “Broken in the 3rd vertebra” what is “curled” what is “Deep” and what is “rollkur”.

Until, it’s clearly proven that rollkur is safe for all horses in hands of most riders, rollkur should not be practiced at the member endorsed competitions and show grounds. Rollkur as a controversial, unproven horse friendly training method does not belong at the public show competitions for everybody to see and to potentially dangerously copy. Rollkur is not a good example of Dressage Training for the inspiring beginner or average dressage enthusiasts. Rollkur is not a good example of dressage training to Dressage Sport newcomers or onlookers. Rollkur is not the horse friendly and average rider friendly training method. Rollkur should be regulated at the show warm-up just like gag bits, draw reins and other controversial training methods.[/QUOTE]

You have a lovely mare, but please tell her the amount of stars in our universe, so she don’t have to count them herself But maybe I watched the wrong videos (on a Spanish website) hahaha

[Coppers_mom]

@Dressage Art;4656288

Copper’s Mom said that this is not rollkur, but just a bad riding…

God you really are one of a kind, aren’t you? I never said such a thing. [edit]

I SAID that there is a difference between the philosophy and the application. The position may be rollkur, but the application (IMO), is incorrect.

Rollkur has never been defined as your hysterical little group has defined it. No one has ever said that in order to correctly practice RK, you must crank the horse’s head in, hold it there, spur him the whole time, etc etc. YOU say that. YOUR definition, not the inventor’s definition, is what I called bad riding.

I’m done trying to have a logical discussion with someone who either can’t read, or simply refuses to.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4655985]
Then you guys are arguing against bad riding, not Rollkur.[/QUOTE]

May be learn how to express yourself more clear if others keep on misunderstanding you?
But I’m done with you. [edit]

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=MySparrow;4656589]

[QUOTE=andalusia;4655023]My Sparrow: Theo, who is Theo who is Theo who is Cocktail, posted a link to a Facebook Group. That thread was deleted. But here is the link again. You might want to visit it and read the wallposts and view the fotos.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=285476607441QUOTE]

Okay, I visited it, and found this quote from Pia Munck:

EVERY BODY CAN LEARN HOW TO USE IT !

AND ALL HORSES CAN BENEFIT FROM IT !

Given the many times that it has been said here that rollkur/hyperflexion is for top riders and top horses – given that Anky vG herself said this emphatically in that oft-quoted interview – how do we feel about this?[/QUOTE]

I also stressed that Rollkur, like any training method, can cause great harm if it is misused. - Roly Owers

To curl down horse’s head to its chest and keep it there for a long periods of time may take a lot of force and waterskiing. It definitely can be quite damaging in the wrong hands.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4656008]
So the FEI has specifically said that RK is forcing the head down, cranking it there without any release, spurring all the way?

The position of RK is different from the misuse of it. Cavalletti, hillwork, and riding them long and low/up in front are good, but you can also do a world of harm with them.[/QUOTE]

i am just really curious… the videos i posted were mostly of Anky… at warmups at FEI events being coached by Sjef.

are you saying that in all the videos there are of Anky riding what you call “bad riding and not rollkur” that she is making errors and isnt riding well? that she isnt capable of riding rollkur (her and sjefs invention) well?

if that is the case - what do you call what she is doing?

because THAT is what we are talking about… not deep, not a little btv, but what is clearly shown in those (many videos )…

[Davignport]

Yikes!!! In the name of all that is good let this thread die… It is a no-win topic.

[Karoline]

[QUOTE=Geneva;4656498]
It’s worth noting he got fired a few weeks later.[/QUOTE]

Look at the recent history of the FEI, seems like Princess Haya fires at will those who do not please her or support her positions.