Do you practice Rollkur?

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=millerra;4655686]
Whoa, DA… Wow.

I’ve known two UL competitive riders rather well - 1 eventer and 1 dressage person.

Both took exquisite care of all their horses - even the retired ones.

Did they look for horses that could help them reach their competitive goals. Sure. SO DO I. Who doesn’t???

Both seemed to love/care for their partners dearly.

Were they competitive people? Yes. Did I once ever see them compromise their horse’s longevity or soundness for a blue ribbon? No.

The top competitive riders that I know are not devil spawn who use horses like tools… perhaps you should get to know a few before you paint them all w/ the same broad brush.[/QUOTE]

All? No, I didn’t say that. But very few remain and are quite frustrated and even ready to quit.

It’s good that you are happy how the most elite dressage riders and horses train. I am not. I’d like to see more compassion for horses on daily bases and recognition of more dressage training rather than a strong, unbalanced emphasis on a flashy God’s given gaits. I’d like to see more diversity in the show ring with different breeds represented even on the top dressage shows. By obvious lack of Arabs, Appaloosas, Drafts and other off-breeds, it’s obvious that the card deck is stacked.

Top elite dressage riders are getting further and further away from the reality of the average dressage horse rider year after year.

Now, we have a special training method rollkur/LDR only suited for Elite Dressage Riders and Elite Dressage horses?

Why that method needs to be present at the average dressage shows then?

[millerra]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4655716]
All? No, I didn’t say that. But very few remain and are quite frustrated and even ready to quit.

It’s good that you are happy how the most elite dressage riders and horses train. I am not. I’d like to see more compassion for horses on daily bases and recognition of more dressage training rather than a strong, unbalanced emphasis on a flashy God’s given gaits. I’d like to see more diversity in the show ring with different breeds represented even on the top dressage shows. By obvious lack of Arabs, Appaloosas, Drafts and other off-breeds, it’s obvious that the card deck is stacked.

Top elite dressage riders are getting further and further away from the reality of the average dressage horse rider year after year.

Now, we have a special training method rollkur/LDR only suited for Elite Dressage Riders and Elite Dressage horses?

Why that method needs to be present at the average dressage shows then?[/QUOTE]

What few remain? Seems to me that there are many really good UL dressage riders. And probably every one will suffer burn out and/or retire to primarily teaching at some point. It can be a stressful, sacrifice everything type game. I like learning from the ones who have been there/done that. They tend to have a good perspective.

I don’t see what the breed thing has to do w/ anything. Some breeds are better/bred for UL dressage then others. I didn’t think this was a mystery. Or a slam against other breeds. I don’t think too many people w/ horse pulling teams are hitching up DWs or TBs.

And yes, the elite do seem to be getting better and better w/r/t horses and scores. Bully for them!

Think a “rising tide raises all boats” instead of crying…

[ThreeFigs]

Go have a look at the LDR Facebook page, DA. There might be the photos/videos you’ve been asking others to post. Seek out examples other than the extremes that you love (to hate) so much.

Seek the balanced view for yourself. Anyone who comes forward with an example opens him-or-herself to your ridicule and nastiness.

It’s lose-lose.

Milerra, DA is exaggerating and setting up straw men as usual. You make good points, wasted on some in this thread, sadly.

You know, that pearls before swine thing!

Heeee!

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=hitchinmygetalong;4655715]
After all, that’s the point, isn’t it - to get people in an uproar? You certainly took the bait.[/QUOTE]Oh many, many are already in uproar. I actually came quite late to that… I was previously more open to rollkur but it’s dismissive and pompous responses of pro-rollkur for Elite riders who seem to be the only ones who can understand it = that shifted me to the anti-rollkur side. You lost my vote.

[fburton]

[QUOTE=hitchinmygetalong;4655715]
Perhaps that is because “correctly” used, it isn’t titillating enough to post on the Internet.[/QUOTE]
Still, it would be good to see videos of RK being used correctly. Explanations can contribute to understanding, but there is enormous value in seeing something with one’s own eyes.

ETA: Does the sequence starting at 5:01 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-C433UIK-8 show correct use?

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4655716]
It’s good that you are happy how the most elite dressage riders and horses train. I am not. I’d like to see more compassion for horses on daily bases and recognition of more dressage training rather than a strong, unbalanced emphasis on a flashy God’s given gaits. I’d like to see more diversity in the show ring with different breeds represented even on the top dressage shows. By obvious lack of Arabs, Appaloosas, Drafts and other off-breeds, it’s obvious that the card deck is stacked.

Top elite dressage riders are getting further and further away from the reality of the average dressage horse rider year after year.

Now, we have a special training method rollkur/LDR only suited for Elite Dressage Riders and Elite Dressage horses?

Why that method needs to be present at the average dressage shows then?[/QUOTE]

Ah, now I’m understanding your REAL agenda. I figured that along, but glad to see you post it.

[hitchinmygetalong]

@Dressage Art;4655775

Oh many, many are already in uproar. I actually came quite late to that… I was previously more open to rollkur but it’s dismissive and pompous responses of pro-rollkur for Elite riders who seem to be the only ones who can understand it = that shifted me to the anti-rollkur side. You lost my vote.

Please don’t assume I am either for or against. I’m “independent”, if you will. I am listening to both sides and right now, I’m leaning towards those who appear to have actual experience with the method.

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4655659]
I’m yet to hear why and when Deep becomes Rollkur and why and when it is necessary to absolutely close the neck and held the horse for the prolonged periods of time in the hyper flexion beyond the natural flexion of the neck of the horse? [/QUOTE]

Then you obviously can’t read, since those have all been answered numerous times on this thread.

Also, what in the world do off breeds have to do with anything? If I want to go do advanced eventing, I’m not going to get a Norwegian Fjord. If I want to have a world class heavy pulling team, I’m not going to get a bunch of TB’s. Why force them into something they’re not good at?

[ThreeFigs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

Carl Hester. As the warmup progresses the horse is definitely LDR with poll not the highest place.

Looks OK to me. I present this as a sample of “good” LDR.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4655898]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

Carl Hester. As the warmup progresses the horse is definitely LDR with poll not the highest place.

Looks OK to me. I present this as a sample of “good” LDR.[/QUOTE]

interesting video - thanks for posting it.

i don’t consider what is shown “Rollkur” that to me is deep…

while i would not ride like that as regular fare, nor do i think dressage horses need to be ridden like that to be well trained, i dont object to it in the same way i object to rollkur.

rollkur to me is what is shown in the many many many videos and pictures where the horse is literally nose to chest, being cranked in, spured forward, without release. (ie scandic, various video of anky, etc etc)

if everyone is saying that they think what is shown in the video is rollkur - we aren’t even talking about the same thing. AT ALL.

here is what i consider rollkur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXQDOun7yY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&feature=channel

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4655898]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM

Carl Hester. As the warmup progresses the horse is definitely LDR with poll not the highest place.

Looks OK to me. I present this as a sample of “good” LDR.[/QUOTE]

That is not rollkur/hyperflexion. This is just Deep. He asks his horse to stretch down and the releases him. He also tells at the end of the tape that it’s not the same as holding the horse with your hands in the closed neck/frame. You posted the example of Deep = this is not what I’m talking about.

I have no issues with Deep method as I said before many times. I have an issue with rollkur/hyperflexion.

This is the example of rollkur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4 This is quite different from Carl Hester video that you posted. And this is the responce form the ride in this video:

"Patrik Kittel was called up on the telephone before we ran the story. However, Mr. Kittel did not wish to comment beyond a reference to his lawyers and a statement that he believes he is using the method, hyperflexion of the neck, in the correct way and so also in accordance with the FEI Code of Conduct. "

I hope that most horse people can see the difference of those 2 videos and can see the difference of riding Deep verses riding hyperflexion/rollkur/ldr… Otherwise the whole conversation is pointless and rollkur will always be hiding behind the Deep Method… or you just spend several days arguing about the method that I have no issue with?

[Coppers_mom]

Then you guys are arguing against bad riding, not Rollkur.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4655985]
Then you guys are arguing against bad riding, not Rollkur.[/QUOTE]

ummm… glad to hear you say it is bad riding… but we are not the ones who call it rollkur or hyperflexion - so does teh FEI and every other organization out there that is involved with the debate.

once again i post the paper from the FEI workshop on rollkur.

http://www.fei.org/Athletes_AND_Horses/Documents/Workshop_Report_Final_050306.pdf

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=mbm;4655947]
if everyone is saying that they think what is shown in the video is rollkur - we aren’t even talking about the same thing. AT ALL.

here is what i consider rollkur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXQDOun7yY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&feature=channel[/QUOTE]

absolutely!

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=mbm;4655994]
ummm… glad to hear you say it is bad riding… but we are not the ones who call it rollkur or hyperflexion - so does teh FEI and every other organization out there that is involved with the debate.

once again i post the paper from the FEI workshop on rollkur.

http://www.fei.org/Athletes_AND_Horses/Documents/Workshop_Report_Final_050306.pdf[/QUOTE]
So the FEI has specifically said that RK is forcing the head down, cranking it there without any release, spurring all the way?

The position of RK is different from the misuse of it. Cavalletti, hillwork, and riding them long and low/up in front are good, but you can also do a world of harm with them.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4655985]
Then you guys are arguing against bad riding, not Rollkur.[/QUOTE]

No, what MBM posted was ridden by strong, very talented, top elite riders, including riders who actually invented/started rollkur/hyperflexion/LDR method such as Sjef Janssen and Anky van Grunsven. This is rollkur - this is not just a “bad riding” this is what they think is a good riding. This is what they promote. And this is what I don’t want to see riding next to me in the dressage warm up arena.

You need to define for yourself more clear what is Deep Method and what is Rollur/hyperflexion/LDR.

They have significant differences and as I said before, I’m fine with Deep method. I ask my own horses to stretch down to bring their back up - and if my horse stretches downward, but not yet carries himself affront of the vertical = it’s OK as a way towards the correct final result of a perfect downwards stretch. I would not stop the downwards stretching just b/c my horse’s head is behind the vertical. I look at the whole body, not just a horse’s head. Young or untrained horses are all over the place, some prone to curling as well, but sometimes the bigger picture that matters and that is the freedom of the back. The affront of the vertical may come latter.

I thought that I clearly stated that at the very beginning of this thread, saying that Deep Method like ridden by SF is OK in my book. Well, CH video looks the same.

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4656020]
No, what MBM posted was ridden by strong, very talented, top elite riders, including riders who actually invented/started rollkur/hyperflexion/LDR method. This is rollkur - this is not just a “bad riding” this is what they think is a good riding. This is what they promote. And this is what I don’t want to see riding next to me in the dressage warm up arena.[/QUOTE]
Again, please read. We were discussing the FEI’s definition of RK was, which I don’t believe has ever been in line with what has been described on this thread. I.E. cranking the head in, constant spurring, no release, etc. The FEI’s definition, and the application of it by a few riders, are completely different entities.

@Dressage Art;4656020

You need to define for yourself more clear what is Deep Method and what is Rollur/hyperflexion/LDR.

I have, please see my previous posts. Oh, that’s right, you’re just imagining what you want me to say, not actually reading. My bad. Keep on making up your own story line. Sheesh. ::rolleyes::

@Dressage Art;4656020

I thought that I clearly stated that at the very beginning of this thread, saying that Deep Method like ridden by SF is OK in my book. Well, CH video looks the same.

And that’s just wonderful. Some do not think that even a fraction behind the vertical is ok, some think that working a little deeper than that is ok, and even others think that strapping a horse down and keeping his nose on his chest is ok. People are allowed to disagree, and unfortunately, it doesn’t really matter to them at the end of the day what we think

[mbm]

it doesn’t matter what people believe, but what does matter is a 20 page thread where folks are arguing “Rollkur” is okay only to find out they really mean “deep”

and why anyone would want to call deep riding rollkur and then argue that it is okay i don’t understand… unless it is part of an effort to redefine rollkur?

it seems to me that the real rollkur riders are trying to redefine rollkur to LDR…

but in any case - what i dont like is that this whole thing is ending up pitting a certain sector of riders agsint another… that is a shame.

[Dressage_Art]

What I’m wondering how people is calling the training method that is shown on the videos below ridden by Anky and her students and coached by her husband himself = who actually invented rollkur? Copper’s Mom said that this is not rollkur, but just a bad riding… Anybody else who disagree with inventor of rollkur himself what is rollkur = he is one who is coaching Anky on one of those videos? Or others agree that this is actually rollkur and this is what they support?

[QUOTE=mbm;4655947]
if everyone is saying that they think what is shown in the video is rollkur - we aren’t even talking about the same thing. AT ALL.

here is what i consider rollkur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuXQDOun7yY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&feature=channel[/QUOTE]

[DQtrainer]

The last time somebody posted clips of Reiner Klimke you also called it Rollkür. How is your judge study going ?