[QUOTE=escondi;4654476]
Most of you would give up your first born to ride with a FRACTION of the grace and agility of the very people you take to task.[/QUOTE]See, I think that you are just not able to understand what makes anti -rollkur horse lovers tick. It’s not the blue ribbons and ability to show in Olympics. For many horse people that doesn’t mean anything at all. Many horse people don’t have any desire to compete against one another. Actually most of horse people love their horses for horses themselves and for the horse time that they can spend with their horses on daily bases. Most horse people love their horses for horses themselves and not for the blue ribbons or opportunity to win and keep up with the Johnsons.
But this is the difference of the core believes and what you covet in life. May be you are driven by competitive spirit so much that you would “give up your first born to ride” like Anky… for many horse lovers, it would be quite pointless. B/c that would not change our lives = we are not in to horses to win over other humans. We are in to horses to simply enjoy horses.
[QUOTE=Sabine;4654288]
However I do know that he made valid points because I have those books and have read those books that he was referring to…the proverbial ‘pearls before swine’ comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
WOW… that is a new low. Some pro-rollkur riders do insists that they are the ONLY ones who are “open” for discussion, they are the ONLY ones who can ride, they are the ONLY ones who own and read books, they are the ONLY ones who can understand books, they are the ONLY ones who can interpret those books correctly… but ‘pearls before swine’ tops it all.
Let me remind you Sabine that Baucher was a circus trainer - not a High School Dressage Master, but a circus trainer! So don’t be so pompous and quick throwing “swine” comments at Anti-rollkur horse lovers. (and the irony of your White Knight of Pro-rollkur being a Jouster from Medieval Times in S. CA)
[QUOTE=MySparrow;4654980]You know, people discussing this subject often create a great, but artificial, divide between top riders and the rest of us.[/QUOTE]I agree.
If rollkur is only suited for very few Elite Top riders who are able to ride only Elite Top horses and who are blessed with only the very top riding talent and only $$$$$ to support it = this is more of an argument that rollkur should not be ridden at the shows where normal, average or beginner riders do show.
Keep your rollkur for yourself. Stop forcing it on the rest of us at the warm ups at the shows that we go to.
[QUOTE=mzpeepers;4654204]
I don’t know a thing about reputations being damaged but I had the dubious pleasure of watching the work of the person in question and, regardless of the number of horses he rides, his riding “skills” leave a lot of room for improvement (and I’m being VERY kind). Whether Don and the person Karoline is referring to are one and the same, I wouldn’t know.[/QUOTE]
Dressage Art: Are you saying that you believe competitive riders put their results before the welfare of their horses? That they don’t love horses as much as you love yours because they choose a training method you don’t ascribe to?
Dressage Art: “Keep your rollkur for yourself. Stop forcing it on the rest of us at the warm ups at the shows that we go to.”
Who is forcing it on you? Are you forced to practice LDR because someone at a show has a horse in an LDR position?
The appearance of the LDR Facebook page is refreshing. I see no photographs of tortured horses there, and much that is correct. Might that be the LDR group’s “propaganda”? Certainly.
Just as showing extreme examples, complete with slo-mo, discordant music and so forth makes up the propaganda for the other side.
They have a right to defend themselves from the attacks and to justify/explain their methods. For some horses, LDR is not necessary, for others, it may be the key to unlocking stiff parts and suppling the horse.
My gelding would travel in an LDR position on his own when I first got him – partly due to weakness in his injured back. We allowed him to go this way, while encouraging more activity behind. Eventually he was able to lift his head & neck to a more traditionally correct position. Riding him in a position with his withers & lower neck the highest point was part of his physical therapy. Not that his nose was on his chest, but he was certainly lower & rounder in the neck than normal.
In those early days, asking him to go with the “taditionally correct” poll at the highest point, would have worked against his welfare. It took a while to overcome his injury and build the strength over the back. Now he travels in a quite correct frame that even you, DA, would find pleasing.
Extreme RK is skating on thin ice. LDR, however, has great benefits for certain horses. I would hate to see the LDR baby thrown out with the RK bathwater!
[QUOTE=escondi;4655280]
Dressage Art: Are you saying that you believe competitive riders put their results before the welfare of their horses? That they don’t love horses as much as you love yours because they choose a training method you don’t ascribe to?[/QUOTE]
Do you really think that most Top Competitive Riders would be as exited to get an Arab, Appaloosa, Draft, etc in their training rather than a Elite bloodline Warm Blood ( and it’s NOT going to be a “waste of their time”?)?
Do you really think that most Top Competitive Riders will “waste” their time on the less talented horses of any breed?
Do you really think that most Top Competitive Riders would keep in their barns the “nqr” of and on horses and try to nurture those back to soundness (aka waste their time?)?
Do you really think that most Top Competitive Riders do not look at their horses as equipment to further themselves to the very top? Do you really think that they do really love their horses just like an average horse lover does?
Do you really think that all that illegal doping is done for the “love” of horses?
Do you really think that rollkur trainers put their horses in rollkur positions for long periods of time b/c of “love” for them? This is why “blue tongue” was warmed up like that? And “rollkur pony” was lunged like that? For their “love” of their horses?
No, for the most part, I do not like what I see what most Top Competitive Riders do. And every year, I like it less and less. I think we are moving further and further away from the training of dressage and becoming more and more result oriented, results at any price and any methods. And if this method works = it is automatically proven that it is OK to use it. No matter how it affects horses daily, weekly.
I was hopeful when FEI came out with the “Happy athlete”, but it seems that it’s just a damage control and PR rather than an honest desire to protect horses in their every day training.
I do not think that the current dressage methods are headed in the right direction for the horse’s welfare. Instead, they are balancing on the verge of promoting harsh riding techniques.
My question to you is what about all of the average riders with average horses with average dreams? What kind of training methods we should use? Or we should just give up on dressage and go to other disciplines where average riders and average horses are more accepted and not compared to “swine”? Or you just want us to shell our money for the yearly memberships to support the Top Dressage Atheletes, quietly admire them, and know our “swine” place?
when I grew up riding, my very very old school, classical dressage trainer was very clear to point out that any horse that went around like that was wrong and what y’all are calling rolkur, she called “an evasion of the worst kind”
It’s like putting a razor in a monkey’s hand. Much like Jimmy Wofford said in his book, " I don’t care how severe a bit you decide to ride in as long as you guarantee that you won’t hit your horse in the mouth with it."
“Rolkur… professional rider on professional horse, don’t try this at home” May result in serious injury. Side effects may include nausea, dizziness, temporary blindness and bludgeoning by the COTH bb…
my question would be: since the FEI stated very clearly that rollkur was potentially dangerous if used by anyone but the very few select topriders, do those that use rollkur believe they are part of that selected few?
and if not, do you think the FEI is incorrect in its stance?
here is what the FEI said:
"Hyperflexion of the neck is a technique of working/training to provide a
degree of longitudinal flexion of the mid-region of the neck that cannot be
self-maintained by the horse for a prolonged time without welfare
implications.”
“There must be an understanding that hyperflexion as a training aid must
be used correctly, as the technique can be an abuse when attempted by
an inexperienced/unskilled rider/trainer.”
A horse traveling behind the vertical, one that would not (or could not) take contact with the bit, is truly “benind the bit”. And that IS an evasion. It can happen for several reasons – horse has been “trained” to go that way, perhaps through excessive use of draw reins, a learned avoidance of bit contact (rough handling, severe bits, etc.), possibly weakness, too.
A horse intentionally ridden BTV, but still maintaining a light contact, is something else. Perhaps the line is crossed between a useful LDR to an abusive RK when the “lightness” of the contact is lost and it becomes harsh?
With respect, I think you missed the point. I am not saying ginger isn’t an irritant. I am saying that some people may consider its irritant effect not to be abusive - and that is a value judgement.
Not everyone who uses low, round and deep, is causing any discomfort to the horse. The experts are using it to the horse’s benefit. There is a huge qualitative difference which you are ignoring.
I am concerned to avoid causing unnecessary discomfort to a horse, whether or not it leads to long terms benefits in terms of how people judge its athletic performance. If LDR and RK are used without causing discomfort then I have no misgivings about them. Is this always the case? I am sure it isn’t.
Discomfort and irritation are very similar - they certainly aren’t chalk and cheese. However, whether deliberately inflicting discomfort or irritation actually constitutes abuse is a value judgement.
So we get back to the question of whether RK, as it is typically or properly applied, causes significant discomfort. It seems to me that depends on whether the position is forced or not, how long it is maintained, and whether it is maintained against the horse’s will. If the horse doesn’t like being in that position, I think it is a reasonable assumption that it is due to some kind of discomfort - which could be physical or mental. Some people may feel that placing the horse in an uncomfortable posture is perfectly ok; others may consider it ugly, unnecessary, abusive and/or against the spirit of dressage. Value judgement.
Let me repeat: as long as RK causes no, or insignificant, discomfort, I have absolutely nothing against it. (“Insignificant” is a level of discomfort that a horse readily adapts to, like having a bit in its mouth or the weight of a rider distributed through a well-fitting saddle.)
Now, if you were comparing LDR/rollkur to something like leg wraps, I would accept the argument. Leg wraps can be very useful and beneficial to the horse in some circumstances when properly used. If used improperly, for days on end without break, too tightly, applied by inexpert hands, leg wraps can cripple a horse.
Your anlogy is also perfectly valid.
Yet, many people still use leg wraps. Are they all abusive?
No, of course not - as long as they are used properly, i.e. in a way that doesn’t cause significant discomfort.
Now, I also accept that we do sometimes have to inflict significant discomfort for the good of the horse, e.g. in some veterinary procedures, that is necessary for the horse’s longer term well-being. In the case of dressage, however, factors other than well-being may come into play. All the same, I believe we should strive to make the experience as pleasant for the horse as possible, and to work with the horse in as harmonious a relationship as possible. Value judgement again.
[QUOTE=mbm;4655414]
my question would be: since the FEI stated very clearly that rollkur was potentially dangerous if used by anyone but the very few select topriders, do those that use rollkur believe they are part of that selected few?
and if not, do you think the FEI is incorrect in its stance?
here is what the FEI said:
"Hyperflexion of the neck is a technique of working/training to provide a
degree of longitudinal flexion of the mid-region of the neck that cannot be
self-maintained by the horse for a prolonged time without welfare
implications.”
“There must be an understanding that hyperflexion as a training aid must
be used correctly, as the technique can be an abuse when attempted by
an inexperienced/unskilled rider/trainer.”[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CatOnLap;4655416]
I think it is the need to control or get rid of something that one doesn’t fully understand.[/QUOTE]
I answer to you with a quote from S. S. Wensing about Rollkur:
S. S. Wensing - Public opinion can not be dismissed with the single - incorrect - conclusion that most have no understanding. Winning medals says nothing about the welfare of the horse. The use of a horse in a riding either. I think that in no way to determine whether a domesticated horse sport better than an animal in the wild.
[I]However I do know that he made valid points because I have those books and have read those books that he was referring to....the proverbial 'pearls before swine' comes to mind.[/I]
DA, do you understand the meaning of “pearls before swine”? It means to not share your riches (knowledge) with those who neither understand nor appreciate them.
I think it is a perfect saying for this thread, for those who are squawking the loudest against RK seem to be those who are the most unwilling to listen to the people who have first-hand knowledge of its applications. Since you seem to be dead-set against opening your mind, why should they bother to debate this topic with you any longer?
I’ve watched this thread from the very beginning, and the one thing I have learned from it is that, like ANY training aide, whether it is abusive or not completely depends on the person who is using it. It’s not the method, it is the practitioner. Period.
As for drumming up support for your rabid anti-RK campaign, cout me out. :no:
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4655375]
Do you really think that most Top Competitive Riders would be as exited to get an Arab, Appaloosa, Draft, etc in their training rather than a Elite bloodline Warm Blood ( and it’s NOT going to be a “waste of their time”?)?[/QUOTE]
What does this have to do with anything escondi wrote about? Just because they don’t have a barn full of average horses doesn’t mean that the upper level riders love their horses any less. Would they be excited to have my 15.1 hand, ultra-spastic TB? Probably not. But if I paid the money, I doubt they’d turn her away. It’s not that UL riders won’t take these horses, it’s that very few people with your average Appaloosa, Percheron, whatever are going to spend the money to have it in training with an GP rider. What? Unless you have a horse who’s going to be extremely difficult to work with because of conformation, movement, ability, etc, you don’t love your horse?
You obviously don’t know a lot of top riders. Most don’t have a barn full of phenomenal horses. They have one, maybe two, really fantastic horses. Then they’ve got the relatively talented ones, and then they’ve got the fairly average ones that we’ll never hear about because they’ll be sold or belong to a client. Why are you so hell bent on a professional riding an off breed? Would you pay $3,000+ a month to have a Percheron you knew would never make it above 1st level in training with a top pro? Probably not. Again, they’ll ride what you pay them to. As they get better, they get better horses, and raise their prices. This progression has nothing to do with whether or not they love their horses.
Um, hello Matinee. Top horses are treated like athletes. If they need something, they get it. They are constantly being nurtured and coddled. They probably find out the horse is NQR long before the average person would (doesn’t Totilas get a check up every 6 weeks or so?), so you never actually hear about an ongoing problem. They fix it before it becomes permanent. But, no, most probably wouldn’t keep a horse in their barn like that, because they don’t own them. Owners are far more likely to pull out because of the expense than a trainer is because they’re “wasting their time”.
Are you freaking kidding me? So because they’re good at what they do, they can’t love their horses like the average person? What average person spends all day in the barn, getting to know the horse, caring for him, looking after his every need? What average horse person pours over information and customizes turn-out, nutrition, vetrinary care, farrier work, etc the way a top professional does? What average person hires an arsenal of people who know better so that the horse is guaranteed to have the best care? What is love to you? That you’re ok slinging the horse out in a pasture and riding him for 20 minutes three times a week?
If keeping the horse comfortable means you don’t love them, so be it.
They put them into those positions because they believe that it’s doing some kind of good for the horse. Nothing more, nothing less. And you’re really sensationalizing the whole blue tongue incident by mentioning it in every post. PK stuck the tongue back in and continued training, what else did you want him to do with a horse with a confirmed, though improving, problem? I keep asking you this, and you have yet to come up with anything other than the same, emotional, “Oh god his tongue is out” response.
Maybe it’s because the only things you seem to watch are sensationalist videos made only for propoganda.
So, you think that the FEI should be in every barn, every day, watching what people do? The FEI can only work at sanctioned shows. What people do at home is, like it or not, not up to the FEI. What is it that you want the FEI to do, specifically, besides ban RK, that you think will improve the welfare of horses at shows?
How? Besides that they have not yet taken a stand for or against RK, how are they on the verge of promoting harsh riding?
What about them? What at all do average riders have to do with this discussion? They are no different from top riders in that THEY must choose the methods that work best for THEIR horses. It’s ridiculous to act like someone else should decide what’s best for you and your horse.
And seeing that there are drastically more lower levels than upper levels, if you don’t feel accepted in dressage, I really doubt you’ll feel accepted anywhere else. The USDF has bent over backwards trying to make dressage at the lower levels more inviting. I mean, you have walk/trot classes for heavens sakes! There are medals, year end awards, everything for horses and riders that can do no more than 20 meter circles. What else do you want them to do?
So what is it DA? Do you not like RK? Or do you not like all those big, successful, talented people with their big, fancy, non-average horses? You sound like you’re jealous, and your only consolation is that you supposedly love your horse more. If you’re average, you’re average. Get over it. Railing against those that have risen to the top is just a waste of energy.
I think that the FEI was being wishy washy and trying to placate everyone. They were trying to tell the UL riders it was fine and they could keep going, as well as trying to agree with everyone that believed it was dangerous. It was neither correct nor incorrect. IMO, it was just to say something.
I don’t think I’m part of a select few, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not a brilliant rider. I, personally, don’t think it takes world class skill to get the horse going this way. I do, however, believe it takes some tact, which I think a few of the Upper Level riders are lacking. No exercise is beneficial for as long as some UL riders are using the method.
Really, it has nothing to do with the method, but the application. Even the best things can be overdone.
[QUOTE=hitchinmygetalong;4655630]
DA, do you understand the meaning of “pearls before swine”? It means to not share your riches (knowledge) with those who neither understand nor appreciate them.[/QUOTE]
Again, let me respond with a quote about Rollkur from Wensing.
Public opinion can not be dismissed with the single - incorrect - conclusion that most have no understanding. Winning medals says nothing about the welfare of the horse. The use of a horse in a riding either. I think that in no way to determine whether a domesticated horse sport better than an animal in the wild.
As for pro rollkur arguments: I’m yet to see ANY video of so called “correct” rollkur posted here. I’m yet to hear why and when Deep becomes Rollkur and why and when it is necessary to absolutely close the neck and held the horse for the prolonged periods of time in the hyper flexion beyond the natural flexion of the neck of the horse?
Those questions are still remain unanswered. I’m still listening. I am open to hear explanations.
PS: or may be I misunderstand you and that you just don’t want to share your rollkur knowledge and video links? Do you really think that all anti-rollkur horse lovers are not knowledgeable enough? Thus “pearls before swine” proverb?
I’ve known two UL competitive riders rather well - 1 eventer and 1 dressage person.
Both took exquisite care of all their horses - even the retired ones.
Did they look for horses that could help them reach their competitive goals. Sure. SO DO I. Who doesn’t???
Both seemed to love/care for their partners dearly.
Were they competitive people? Yes. Did I once ever see them compromise their horse’s longevity or soundness for a blue ribbon? No.
The top competitive riders that I know are not devil spawn who use horses like tools… perhaps you should get to know a few before you paint them all w/ the same broad brush.
Perhaps that is because “correctly” used, it isn’t titillating enough to post on the Internet. After all, that’s the point, isn’t it - to get people in an uproar? You certainly took the bait.
[quote=Dressage Art;4655659]I’m yet to hear why and when Deep becomes Rollkur and why and when it is necessary to absolutely close the neck and held the horse for the prolonged periods of time in the hyper flexion beyond the natural flexion of the neck of the horse?
Those questions are still remain unanswered. I’m still listening. I am open to hear explanations.
[/quote]
You may be open to HEARING explanations, you just aren’t willing to LISTEN to explanations.
[quote=Dressage Art;4655659]PS: or may be I misunderstand you and that you just don’t want to share your rollkur knowledge and video links? Do you really think that all anti-rollkur horse lovers are not knowledgeable enough? Thus “pearls before swine” proverb?
[/quote]
I have no “rollkur knowledge and video links”. Everything I have learned about rollkur has been on this board.
