I haven’t read all the most recent posts, but DA, I think this person must mean that one COULD ride a whole high-level test off the seat, not that one WOULD.
Assuming, of course, that the horse and rider are well trained…
This thread has become beyond irritating and irrational and has ceased to be of any value. If it ever was.
[QUOTE=mbm;4652531]
Sabine - what is your connection with DRR? why are you posting using his name?[/QUOTE]
I have been rereading posts from Donny K and I am having an uncanny impression that I know him. If I am right he is a nice man who used to Joust at Medieval Times which is in Southern CA. .
Don’t even go there, K, you’ve already done enough damage to reputations of people you don’t even know. Leave good people alone, and that particular person actually works and rides, A LOT, and not the keyboard like you.
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4653508]
I think you are the only one who still keeps on attacking posters personally. As others said, please refrain yourself from personal attacks. Please focus on subject and discuss the subject. Addressed for you:[/QUOTE]
Well, I have made an effort to add to the discussion, and you only take out the bits that you think are mean and personal. You’ve been doing it the whole thread. Seriously, you haven’t focused at all or tried to discuss the subject except for in 2 posts, where you conveniently only replied to what you’d imagined I said. I don’t think it’s mean to express frustration that a particular group of people refuses to even read.
RE: The study about gauges in the reins.
I think I remember that one, wasn’t there a huge variance between the amount of weight in the reins? Like at one point, there’s be 0 pounds of pressure, and there was something in the teens as the highest?
I agree with those that say that it’s hard to judge rein pressure. Some horses like more, some like less. Some may need a pretty big half halt every once in a while. Some people get upset when there’s little give (thought it’d be nice to see the fact that the communication should be subtle, not loud and visible to the bystanders illustrated), others would get upset if the contact wasn’t consistent. How do we decide what’s too much, not enough, too constant, too inconsistent, etc.?
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4653515]
Did you ever rode in CDI or judged it? You will be penalized in CDI FEI tests if you will ride with no contact on the curb rein.[/QUOTE]
DA did you ride or judge a CDI :no::no::no:
Why don’t you adopt a dog or a cat ? They will give you all the attention you need !
[QUOTE=AhORSei$Ah0R$e;4654070]
Don’t even go there, K, you’ve already done enough damage to reputations of people you don’t even know. Leave good people alone, and that particular person actually works and rides, A LOT, and not the keyboard like you.[/QUOTE]
I dont think one word I said was maligning, in fact I edited my initial post a bit to keep it neutral. But, your response leads me to believe I am correct.
I for one does not pause as an expert rider, I think I have been clear that I approach this from the body of the horse which I am getting to know very well.
As to my riding, at this point I would call it more happy hacker then keyboard, and I have never pretended otherwise.
[QUOTE=AhORSei$Ah0R$e;4654070]
Don’t even go there, K, you’ve already done enough damage to reputations of people you don’t even know. Leave good people alone, and that particular person actually works and rides, A LOT, and not the keyboard like you.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know a thing about reputations being damaged but I had the dubious pleasure of watching the work of the person in question and, regardless of the number of horses he rides, his riding “skills” leave a lot of room for improvement (and I’m being VERY kind). Whether Don and the person Karoline is referring to are one and the same, I wouldn’t know.
Maybe you should post you question here
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=mf&gid=285476607441
Latest members who joined the group :
Imke Schellekens-Bartels - Silver medal team /Olympic Games 08 - Holland
Hans Peter Minderhoud - Silver medal team /Olympic Games 08 - Holland
Ellen Schulten-Bau…mer - Bronze medal team / European Championship - Germany
Carl Hester - Silver medal team / European Championship - Great Britain
Wayne Channon - Olympic Rider - Great Britain
Joanna Jackson - Olympic Rider - Great Britain
Patrick KITTEL - Olympic Rider - Sweden
Catherine HADDAD - 7th in finals World Cup Las Vegas - USA
Joachim Thomsen - Grand Prix - Denmark
Kimi Nielsen - Grand Prix - Denmark
Henriette Andersen - Grand Prix - Denmark
Anna Kasprzak - Grand Prix - Denmark
Laurens van Lieren - Grand Prix - Ho…lland
James Rooney - Grand Prix - Ireland
Mary Hanna - Grand Prix - Australia
Gareth Hughes - Grand Prix - Australia
Christy Oatley - Grand Prix - Australia
Philippe MAYNIER - Grand Prix - France
Sylvie Poulain - Grand Prix - France
Remy Issartel - Grand Prix - France
Sergio Martin - Grand Prix - Spain
Silvia Rizzo - Grand Prix - Italie
Mario van Orshaegen - Grand Prix - Belgium
Dane Rawlins - Grand Prix - England
Erlend Korneliussen - Norway
Kikko Kalliokoski - Finland
Lee Pearson - 3 gold medals i Paralympic Games 2000 + 2004 + 2008
HOF KASSELMANN - Sales PSI - Germany
Gijs Bartels - Academy Bartels - Holland
Mikael Stevn - trainer - Denmark
Charlotte Mogensen - Magazine web horse2rider.eu - Denmark/Spain
Ditte Mikkelsen - trainer - Denmark
Jacqueline Geeroms-Schurkens - trainer - Holland
Mario van Orshaegen… - Professionnal Rider - Holland
Championnats Dressage - France
Bernadette Brune - student with Anky - France
Virginie Mathys - trainer - France
Natacha Micoud - Haras de HUS - France
Hélène Ansidei - trainer - France
Laurence Uhlmann - trainer - France
Yoann Dornier - trainer - France
Michele Boesch - trainer - France
Sylvie Usche - trainer - France
Lydie Karoutchi - trainer - France
Emma Jane Blundell - owner of top horses - Great Britain
Francesca Pollara - trainer - Great Britain
Georg Linsenmaier - trainer - Germany
David Donnelly - trainer - USA
Aurélie Madelrieux - Ostéopathe Equin - Belgium
Rui Almeida - trainer - Portugal
Good Job Theo- I think Facebook is a lot more professional and fun because folks actually speak to each other under their real name- and knowing some of the key folks around here from over there- I must say- the only reason they love COTH is because they can create something of an ‘Ueber Persona’ which is impossible to do on FB- because you’d have to back it up with actual accomplishments and photos or videos.
I am not DRR and I don’t know DRR.
However I do know that he made valid points because I have those books and have read those books that he was referring to…the proverbial ‘pearls before swine’ comes to mind.
Thanks. Very useful site. Pia Munk built it, not Theo.
DRK is a member of that site. Very small world.
Many posters on this subject come across to me as people who are bitter.
Most of you would give up your first born to ride with a FRACTION of the grace and agility of the very people you take to task.
They are living the equestrian experience you wish you had pursued.
This makes some admire. It makes others bitter. Those in the second camp do not come off well.
I’ve seen horses ridden well with spur and whip, and I’ve seen them abused with both, as well. It is all in the hands of the rider and the trainer. “Rollkur?” It’s just another aid.
Is currage a breakfast food?
[QUOTE=escondi;4654476]
Many posters on this subject come across to me as people who are bitter.
Most of you would give up your first born to ride with a FRACTION of the grace and agility of the very people you take to task.
They are living the equestrian experience you wish you had pursued.
This makes some admire. It makes others bitter. Those in the second camp do not come off well.
I’ve seen horses ridden well with spur and whip, and I’ve seen them abused with both, as well. It is all in the hands of the rider and the trainer. “Rollkur?” It’s just another aid.[/QUOTE]
AMEN!
what a nice way to state this without being offensive or trying drag individuals into the mud.
I’ve seen the practice used well. By someone very close to me, in both jumping and dressage.
I don’t like to see good people being called (even in a round-about-way) cruel. Which is what this comes down to.
It’s wrong.
[QUOTE=siegi b.;4653141]
Now, I would like to see a “gauge” put on some amateur riders’ butt to measure the weigth with which they flop on their horses’ backs. And then I would want to see a study that looks at the horse’s spine and the pressure it’s subjected to with each flop, as well as the long-term effects of such riding. Bet you it would make RK look like a walk in the park by comparison.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for bringing that up. You only forgot to mention that each time that amateur flops on the horse’s back, they often slam the horse in the mouth, too. I cringe every time I see it.
[QUOTE=escondi;4654476]
Many posters on this subject come across to me as people who are bitter.
Most of you would give up your first born to ride with a FRACTION of the grace and agility of the very people you take to task.
They are living the equestrian experience you wish you had pursued.
This makes some admire. It makes others bitter. Those in the second camp do not come off well.
I’ve seen horses ridden well with spur and whip, and I’ve seen them abused with both, as well. It is all in the hands of the rider and the trainer. “Rollkur?” It’s just another aid.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
You say this well, clearly and in few words.
You know, people discussing this subject often create a great, but artificial, divide between top riders and the rest of us.
This leaves out quite a few of us who make a living with horses but do not compete at the top levels and never will. For those of us who teach, there is a huge responsibility to pass on to new riders the skills and ethics critical to good horsemastership.
For us this topic is interesting not just for the “aid” of hyperflexion/rollkur itself, right or wrong, but for all of the questions its use raises. Maybe one in 100 of my young riders will go on to compete or train at a significant level. Of the remainder, some will ride for a year, some for a lifetime; but what they learn now will help to form their interactions with the world and its creatures.
So I watch the rollkur/hyperflexion debate with considerable interest. as yet undecided about the physics and waiting for a non-emotional analysis of the impact on the horse. Because that is above all the most important factor.
No music. No slo-mo. No histrionics. No name-calling. Just analysis.
Tug of War comes very close on one side. I haven’t found the equivalent book on the other side. Any suggestions?
My Sparrow: Theo, who is Theo who is Theo who is Cocktail, posted a link to a Facebook Group. That thread was deleted. But here is the link again. You might want to visit it and read the wallposts and view the fotos.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=285476607441
And, yes, LDR does encompass “rollkur.” There was discussion about that and some erroneously stated that it did not. The word “rollkur” has become objectionable. As well it should be if it is considered as a “one shot” training regimen.
As should the whip in the abusive hand.
As should the spur on the careless boot.
As should the insensitive hand holding reins connected to a bit.
As should those who bring up for discussion a topic on which they’ve no desire to receive an exchange of information.
And, yes, LDR does encompass “rollkur.” There was discussion about that and some erroneously stated that it did not. The word “rollkur” has become objectionable. As well it should be if it is considered as a “one shot” training regimen.
As should the whip in the abusive hand.
As should the spur on the careless boot.
As should the insensitive hand holding reins connected to a bit.
As should those who bring up for discussion a topic on which they’ve no desire to receive an exchange of information.
Where is that applause icon?
Bad riding is not specifically “rollkur”. Bad riding manifests in many forms. Rollkur is, in my opinion, one of many but not the “one and only”.
Sadly, my first hand experience of those who do use LDR to its extreme form clearly showed me they do so because they lack the tools to train otherwise. The results are bad all around for those who then see LDR in all its forms as the devil’s spawn, for those who seek to learn and have very limited resources to do so and, most of all, for the horse.
This is in no way saying every-single-person who uses the “method” is an incompetent a-hole but there are more of those fluttering around than I care to see and they hide their incompetence behind the shield of hyperflexion which is supposed to make them great as all the “greats” do it.
Whether using the irritant effect of ginger is abusive is a value judgement too.
fburton you keep bringing that up when you are losing the logical argument. It is too obvious an indicator of grasping at straws.
Chalk and cheese, oranges and apples.
Everyone who uses ginger knows it is an irritant. No one who uses it is ignorant of that fact. I can go into great scientific depth about why it is unequivocally an irritant, in every instance it is used.
Not everyone who uses low, round and deep, is causing any discomfort to the horse. The experts are using it to the horse’s benefit. There is a huge qualitative difference which you are ignoring.
Now, if you were comparing LDR/rollkur to something like leg wraps, I would accept the argument. Leg wraps can be very useful and beneficial to the horse in some circumstances when properly used. If used improperly, for days on end without break, too tightly, applied by inexpert hands, leg wraps can cripple a horse.
Yet, many people still use leg wraps. Are they all abusive?
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
