Do you practice Rollkur?

[egontoast]

What is the point of this thread? You can’t convince people of the correctness of your views by bludgeoning them whenever they dare have any questions about it or any different views about it.

You can’t convince people of the correctness of your views if you call your views pro horse and thereby imply anyone who does not agree with you is not pro horse.

What happens is that people who actually want to discuss different perspectives give up trying to participate so you are left ranting about it with your friends and commenting on how reasonable the thread has become.

[fburton]

@Bluey;4653012

Adding gauges to reins, or to boots to see how hard some may kick a horse, or to our bottoms to measure how much we may be using our seat, that seems like a good idea if you are following some testing protocol, but for competition, that seems a little bit farfetched.

Even if it were not used for scoring, it would provide additional information of an interesting and educational nature. There is precedent for this sort of extra info in other sports.

Dressage has never been about judging by measuring how much one may hold onto the reins or kick or weight the saddle down.

It’s still all about assigning a score to visible manifestations of the “conversation” between rider and horse, isn’t it? Is what the rider does really irrelevant?

I really don’t see that you may compare RK to using ginger in a horses behind to make him stick his tail up.

I consider RK to be no different than putting a rider on a horse’s back, or a bit in a horse’s mouth, as one more way to train, not irritate a horse, as ginger is.:eek:

That is your view; those who ginger might see no difference in principle between what they do and putting a rider on a horse’s back, etc. I suspect they would eschew the word ‘irritate’. In the absence of scientific proof, who’s to say their viewpoint is right or wrong? Both RK and gingering look ugly and unnecessary to me, but that’s just my view!

Comparing apples and bananas doesn’t do us much good.

The underlying facts may differ, but the mindset is the same - it’s just human nature.

[fburton]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4653038]
What happens is that people who actually want to discuss different perspectives[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly what I want to do!

[slc2]

Clayton put gauges on reins. She found the amount of pressure on the reins was constantly varying, even when the rider was ‘doing nothing’.

I don’t think pressure gauges would tell us much except that some horses require more pressure than others; denouncing people who use more pressure would most likely amount to penalizing riders who buy bigger, stronger horses, or less naturally balanced horses, or horses that have been incorrectly trained so that their mouths have lost some feel, or horses that get excited and strong when there are geese near the riding arena, or jumbo tv’s…or a mare.

[slc2]

fburton, doesn’t it always come down to each person making a personal choice as to what they think is right?

[fburton]

@slc2;4653096

Clayton put gauges on reins. She found the amount of pressure on the reins was constantly varying, even when the rider was ‘doing nothing’.

That’s interesting. Does she have anything to say about the current ‘controversy’?

I don’t think pressure gauges would tell us much except that some horses require more pressure than others;

I disagree - I think they have the potential to reveal lots, to anyone who isn’t the rider, about the way pressure (and release) are used in practice - things that are normally invisible.

denouncing people who use more pressure would most likely amount to penalizing riders who buy bigger, stronger horses, or less naturally balanced horses, or horses that have been incorrectly trained so that their mouths have lost some feel, or horses that get excited and strong when there are geese near the riding arena, or jumbo tv’s…or a mare.

Who said anything about denouncing?? :eek:

[fburton]

[QUOTE=slc2;4653099]
fburton, doesn’t it always come down to each person making a personal choice as to what they think is right?[/QUOTE]
Sure, though no one operates completely in isolation - other people’s views about what’s right and wrong usually have to be taken into account.

[BaroquePony]

What happened to the Baucher text quoted by Sabine?

[siegi_b]

Gauges work with machines where there are very little variables. Using gauges to measure how two living beings communicate won’t tell us a thing other than it varies from individual to individual.

Now, I would like to see a “gauge” put on some amateur riders’ butt to measure the weigth with which they flop on their horses’ backs. And then I would want to see a study that looks at the horse’s spine and the pressure it’s subjected to with each flop, as well as the long-term effects of such riding. Bet you it would make RK look like a walk in the park by comparison.

Maybe I need to start a petition? Videos will be very easy to obtain…
Hmmmmm…

[fburton]

@siegi b.;4653141

Gauges work with machines where there are very little variables. Using gauges to measure how two living beings communicate won’t tell us a thing other than it varies from individual to individual.

How do you know without trying it?

Now, I would like to see a “gauge” put on some amateur riders’ butt to measure the weigth with which they flop on their horses’ backs. And then I would want to see a study that looks at the horse’s spine and the pressure it’s subjected to with each flop, as well as the long-term effects of such riding.

So would I!

Bet you it would make RK look like a walk in the park by comparison.

Possibly, though you’d be comparing apples and pears.

[Coreene]

And the ginger comparison was logical?

[fburton]

[QUOTE=Coreene;4653202]
And the ginger comparison was logical?[/QUOTE]
I think so. The purpose was not to compare the practices themselves, but the beliefs of those who practice them.

[CatOnLap]

You can’t convince people of the correctness of your views if you call your views pro horse and thereby imply anyone who does not agree with you is not pro horse.

What happens is that people who actually want to discuss different perspectives give up trying to participate so you are left ranting about it with your friends and commenting on how reasonable the thread has become.

---

I have certainly felt like wading through so much emotionalism to find some technical knowledge tiresome.

And much of the firsthand knowledge never entered or has retired from the thread, which is a pity…

[BaroquePony]

What happened to the Baucher/Sabine post?

[CatOnLap]

fburton, you would put gages on the reins to see if a technique exceeds a certain pressure and call anything above an arbitrary line that you decide, excessive? It will be like the dynamic display of a good symphony- there will be moments when any rider/horse pair exceeds the limits of your defined pressure. I will lay money on it.

And it still does not answer the ethical question of whether the technique used properly in expert hands, is abusive.

Each individual responds to pressure differently. The limits of endurance are different for any individual animal. One will feel pain and discomfort at a different level than another. The art of riding a horse is finding the balance for that pair in terms of body/seat and rein contact. I don’t think you can tell from pressure gages in the reins or making pressure measurements part of the overall movement scores.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4644317]
Yes.I do wonder about my humble post being removed!I am NOT this Theo.What has he done to you?BTW.I am Don Raphaelo Rollkurista and I do like to gently,carefully,and gradually over time,relax my horses jaw and neck until I can ride him in any number of REASONABLE postures.It is really about lowering the horses neck while retaining the same approx. degree of flexion that horse would go in at the vertical at its current level of training.I.E. Much more flexion in the G.P. horse than a horse working at A or L.I repeat.It is about relaxing the horses into lower stretched positions or postures if you will.Not PULLING them down and in!If a horse in G.P. frame is ask to hold that frame and lower his neck to somewhere close to a down and forward angle it will appear as though he was pulled there.At least to 2 of you.It is about a horse that is relaxed enough to really lower his neck while "maintaining the frame angle he had when he was up.So.To stay on topic and not be removed.I do ride what you call rollkur but I do not like that word.I prefer LDR.After that like all else in horsemanship the rest,degree,duration,where,when,why,and for how long is up to the good judgement or lack thereof of the rider.I have witnessed far,far more mouth,spur,whip,and exhaustion abuse by professionals riding at the vertical in the name of classical position than by my fellow rollkuristas by tenfold!In closing.Anyone who puts a horse into the Raminer or “on the bit” classical posture by pulling it in is riding badly.Anyone who deepens a horse,especially if it is to the degree of hyperflexion by pulling it in is riding badly!So!In closing.I would still like to have dinner and wine.Ciao, Don Raphaelo Rollkurista[/QUOTE]

BaroquePony, you are persistent, are you.
How about PM Sabina and asking?

Don’t know, maybe they are both the same, Sabine and that Don, or maybe not, she posted it for him and then had second thoughts?

Here is another of his posts mentioning something about a lost post also.

[mbm]

for those that are interested in scientific studies on the effects of equitation, ie: gauges in reins, legs, seats, etc etc.

they have some interesting studies and videos

http://www.equitationscience.com/

[fburton]

@CatOnLap;4653297

fburton, you would put gages on the reins to see if a technique exceeds a certain pressure and call anything above an arbitrary line that you decide, excessive? It will be like the dynamic display of a good symphony- there will be moments when any rider/horse pair exceeds the limits of your defined pressure. I will lay money on it.

I wouldn’t personally - I was just suggesting it as a possibility, for discussion. In practice, simply exceeding a threshold rein tension would not be the best indicator of heaviness (the opposite of lightness) - rather, a measure which took account of the total time spent at higher rein tensions would be fairer (technically, the integral of force x time).

And it still does not answer the ethical question of whether the technique used properly in expert hands, is abusive.

Indeed, it does not. I think that is a value judgement made personally and by groups of people. Whether using the irritant effect of ginger is abusive is a value judgement too. However, as it happens (and thank goodness!) enough people with enough clout decided it was abusive and outlawed the practice. FWIW, I don’t consider RK to be “terribly” abusive - certainly not in the same league as feaguing - but I do think it is “somewhat” abusive, especially when misapplied (as in the Blue Tongue video).

Each individual responds to pressure differently. The limits of endurance are different for any individual animal. One will feel pain and discomfort at a different level than another. The art of riding a horse is finding the balance for that pair in terms of body/seat and rein contact. I don’t think you can tell from pressure gages in the reins or making pressure measurements part of the overall movement scores.

Presumably, though, a skilled rider will have been able to teach the horse to respond with a fair degree of lightness - so that one would rarely have to stray far into the zone of discomfort, let alone pain? Or is lightness considered less important that correct movement?

[Dressage_Art]

And you wonder why people blow you (collective) off as not knowing anything and being close minded? You have your own out definition, which is completely different than those who use it. If you want to rant against whatever it is that you’ve imagined, go ahead. … Unfortunately, you’re the only ones who can’t seem to see it.

I should have known that you’d come back with something so silly to a post that tried to interject some logic into the discussion. Why do I bother? sigh

I swear, you have one incredible imagination. It’s as if you’re just making up your own little script for this discussion, and the rest of us are just stand ins to put a name to your inner story line.

I think you are the only one who still keeps on attacking posters personally. As others said, please refrain yourself from personal attacks. Please focus on subject and discuss the subject. Addressed for you:

You can’t convince people of the correctness of your views by bludgeoning them whenever they dare have any questions about it or any different views about it.

[Dressage_Art]

Originally Posted by Bluey I will keep insisting that we let the ones that really know decide. Forcing their hands will just create more distrust and division.

Who are the “the ones that really know”? Are they all GP level trainers? Or they all Olympic riders? What credentials do they have?

Are you aware that, at the highest levels, you can drop the reins and do a whole test off your seat, correctly?

That is not correct. Did you ever rode in CDI or judged it? You will be penalized in CDI FEI tests if you will ride with no contact on the curb rein.