Just because you can’t see the release, doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
Think about it, if you release enough for bystanders to see, you’re likely dropping the connection. The communication has to be subtle and consistent. Dropping the line like what you seem to want to see would essentially be dropping the horse and leaving him on his own.
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4652470]
I clinic with a much respected world class Master and for the last couple of years I would come here and I would see somebody asking questions that I just heard him answer and we rode thru with great success. With out mentioning his name, I would write his advice word for word: “I was taught such and such”… some would get it, but many times some people would say “oh, you don’t know what you are talking about” or something like that…
My point it that dressage is in the eye of the beholder. Some people can write quite well, some people can’t. Some people ride quite well, but can’t train at all. Some people are blessed training low level dressage; some others are good at higher levels. Everybody is given a different talent. Don’t try to judge training skills of people by bb posts 
Nobody can know everything! Some people are good at loving their horses = and I respect them only for that. That is their talent and that is what they are good at. And they also deserve to have their voice heard.[/QUOTE]
You are right, we can’t really tell who knows what, but I will keep insisting that we let the ones that really know decide.:yes:
Forcing their hands will just create more distrust and division.
Forward continued,
It is this that decided the author of this book to give in to many petitions and to publish a work which initially was not destined to see the light of day.Kerbrech has stated to me that this book is not his interpretation of the second manner but in fact his masters words verbatum taken from notes written the day of the lessons and formed into this publication.
A fervant disiple,he had consigned by writing,day by day,not only the details of the course followed by him,but alsothe different assignments of his familiar conversations with his eminant professor.
It is these notebooks which srved as a base for the editing of Methodical Training of the Saddle Horse.
Part 4 Chapter 1
Of Exaggerated Ramener
The exaggerated ramener is simply a means of establishing the head at a normal ramener by a complimentary exaggeration of the demands of the horseman.We should employ it only when we want to push the training to the complete destruction of resistances which can be presented to the mouth and nesk in no matter what the gait may be.
Legrete[lightness]Being Obtained Early With The Head Very Elevated,Arrive at the Exaggerated Ramener.–This work should never be attempted unless we first easily obtain the maximum elevation and sustaining of the horses neck in walking,in the trot or in the gallop,with legrete,the lower jaw yielding firstwithout movements of the head.
We begin in place.
The left hand closes then convulsively in feeling the mouth but without pulling.As soon as legrete is manifested,the hand follows the movement of lowering the end of the nose.
It continues to thus follow the mouth to the exaggerated ramener,that is to say,until the moment the chin comes to JUST ABOUT TOUCHING THE BREAST.If the horse,instead of yielding,resists or swerves,the hand opposes with a large force,but always without pulling on the reins.
During this time the legs close and we arrive at the application of the spurs which,of course,the horse should be previously used to tolerating perfectly.
We leave the spurs applied until the complete relaxing of the lower jaw.As soon as the relaxation is produced,the hand proves the sensation of the total disappearance of all resistance.
Th e hand having given in,the head of the horse should rest immobile for a moment before gently raising itself.
Now we place the horse again in the exaggerated ramener being sure not to allow the head to deviate from position with the chin close to the chest and the forhead coming close to horizontal with the ground and we walk,placing the hand to prevent all displacement of the head.
The legs do the rest.With the horse legrete in exaggerated ramener thr legs may act.
The exaggerated ramener being well conserved in walking,and retakes itself well to this gait,after the descent of the hand put the horse to trot in holding him to the exaggerated ramener.
This is all I have time for right now.These are the words of Kerbrech verbatum out of the book.We have now seen that.A.exaggerated ramener is of the second manner.B.It is performed in halt,walk,and trot so far.
More later.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
coppers mom - there is release and release.
rollkur is holding /asking a horse to use his muscles without release. release is when the muscles have a chance to relax … (muscles work as you know by contracting and release)
release is also of course giving/softening the contact when the horse responds as desired.
much of the rollkur i have seen does neither - neither release the muscles or the contact. altho i do agree that if the rider gives the contact away that is not good.
Sabine - what is your connection with DRR? why are you posting using his name?
[QUOTE=mbm;4652523]
coppers mom - there is release and release.
rollkur is holding /asking a horse to use his muscles without release. release is when the muscles have a chance to relax … (muscles work as you know by contracting and release)
release is also of course giving/softening the contact when the horse responds as desired.
much of the rollkur i have seen does neither - neither release the muscles or the contact. altho i do agree that if the rider gives the contact away that is not good.[/QUOTE]
Well, I suppose you could say all that if the only thing you were worried about is villainizing the whole practice.
Holding the head in by force isn’t what anyone who has ever practiced rollkur has advocated.
And you wonder why people blow you (collective) off as not knowing anything and being close minded? You have your own out definition, which is completely different than those who use it. If you want to rant against whatever it is that you’ve imagined, go ahead. But it’s bad riding, not rollkur, that you have a problem with. Unfortunately, you’re the only ones who can’t seem to see it.
huh? i base my opinion on what i see… not what people tell me. as they say - talk is cheap 
as for what “they” advocated… so why do we have count;less videos of the top riders that advocate roll kur doing exactly what i said above?
or videos of sjef riding in a degoue in a double bridle with the horses nose on its chest?
or patrick kittel?
i am going to repost the videos i posted earlier in this thread…
coppers mom do you not agree these are rollkur ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFS...eature=related
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/user/arno8#p/u/3/YgVewusDju0
[QUOTE=mbm;4652598]
huh? i base my opinion on what i see… not what people tell me. as they say - talk is cheap
as for what “they” advocated… so why do we have count;less videos of the top riders that advocate roll kur doing exactly what i said above?
or videos of sjef riding in a degoue in a double bridle with the horses nose on its chest?
or patrick kittel?[/QUOTE]
Did you not read my post? You cannot always see the subtle communications between horse and rider. In fact, if you do, most would say that you need to work on your finesse, not that you were doing it right.
Just because you SEE, doesn’t mean you KNOW, which becomes more and more obvious as this thread continues.
You complain if the communication is seamless, and you complain when Jordan flops around and you can see every cue. Make up your mind.
I should have known that you’d come back with something so silly to a post that tried to interject some logic into the discussion. Why do I bother? sigh
[QUOTE=mbm;4652618]
i am going to repost the videos i posted earlier in this thread…
coppers mom do you not agree these are rollkur ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFS...eature=related
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/user/arno8#p/u/3/YgVewusDju0[/QUOTE]
You’re continuing to try and make up what I believe the proper use of rollkur is, despite my repeated posts, is really getting old.
Yes, I believe it is RK. If you had read any of my previous posts, you’d know that. In fact, I explicitly outlined my definition of rollkur just a few pages ago. However, I do not believe that this is the proper execution of RK.
I swear, you have one incredible imagination. It’s as if you’re just making up your own little script for this discussion, and the rest of us are just stand ins to put a name to your inner story line.
its silly for me to say that what i have seen doesn’t match what you (and others) are saying?
and who is “jordan”?
[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4652660]
Yes, I believe it is RK. If you had read any of my previous posts, you’d know that. In fact, I explicitly outlined my definition of rollkur just a few pages ago. However, I do not believe that this is the proper execution of RK.[/QUOTE]
so… you are saying that what Anky and Patrick (and other top riders) are doing is NOT correct rollkur?
i mean if anky cant do it correctly - who can?
mbm, why not go and spend some time lessoning with a trainer who has learned Sjef’s system from Sjef, or beter yet go lesson with Anky and Sjef? It wouldn’t take too long to learn that your preconceived notions are incorrect.
[QUOTE=mbm;4652531]
Sabine - what is your connection with DRR? why are you posting using his name?[/QUOTE]
none- just a bad joke.
[QUOTE=Sabine;4652886]
none- just a bad joke.[/QUOTE]
Schatzi, guten abend! Bitte we have lunch at Il Fornaio soon, meine treat.
[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4652496]
Just because you can’t see the release, doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
Think about it, if you release enough for bystanders to see, you’re likely dropping the connection. The communication has to be subtle and consistent. Dropping the line like what you seem to want to see would essentially be dropping the horse and leaving him on his own.[/QUOTE]
Rein tension gauges could be useful here, no? I believe they are pretty unobtrusive devices these days, and technically there is no reason why they can’t be made part of the fabric of the reins themselves.
So - beam the tension on to the display board so that everyone can see, and learn. If riders feel the need to use a lot of tension pretty much continuously they can do so; excessive use, however, would be discouraged.
Rein tension could even become an objective (gasp!) part of dressage scoring with, e.g., points deducted every time the tension goes over the limit.
[QUOTE=fburton;4652973]
Rein tension gauges could be useful here, no? I believe they are pretty unobtrusive devices these days, and technically there is no reason why they can’t be made part of the fabric of the reins themselves.
So - beam the tension on to the display board so that everyone can see, and learn. If riders feel the need to use a lot of tension pretty much continuously they can do so; excessive use, however, would be discouraged.
Rein tension could even become an objective (gasp!) part of dressage scoring with, e.g., points deducted every time the tension goes over the limit.[/QUOTE]
Are you aware that, at the highest levels, you can drop the reins and do a whole test off your seat, correctly?
Now, you can’t do that consistently, you have to train with contact to keep the horse working properly, but I have seen demonstrations and of course, Fredy Knie, do that again and again, without bridle or saddle.
That is the ultimate self carriage, when your horse will collect and perform and more interesting, extend without falling on it’s forehand and come back to hand, off your seat.
Granted, having reins to use makes the process much easier, while at the same time making some riders a little too dependent on them.
No, you don’t need hardly any tension in the reins, even when you are using them, with most horses and those you may need more contact at times, you are retraining to lighten them.
With RK, we are concentrating on one secondary part of how a horse is being trained, for flexibility, but is not an end in itself, we need to remember.
Yes, it bugs me to see RK applied, It seems to go against what we learned long ago, but I can see how it can made to work, for those that use it.
I definitely don’t think RK is horse abuse or needs to be banned, that I think is overreacting big time, especially when the ones protesting take the protesting down to personal attacks on the ones using RK.:no:
So would you support or oppose the use of rein tension gauges in competition? What harm could it do?
With RK, we are concentrating on one secondary part of how a horse is being trained, for flexibility, but is not an end in itself, we need to remember.
Yes, it bugs me to see RK applied, It seems to go against what we learned long ago, but I can see how it can made to work, for those that use it.
On another level, I can see how ginger can be made to work and how its use could be justified and defended, even if I don’t like it myself. I don’t suppose the people who do (or did) it really hate their horses - quite the reverse in fact.
I definitely don’t think RK is horse abuse or needs to be banned, that I think is overreacting big time, especially when the ones protesting take the protesting down to personal attacks on the ones using RK.:no:
I agree personal attacks are counterproductive.
[QUOTE=fburton;4653000]
So would you support or oppose the use of rein tension gauges in competition? What harm could it do?
On another level, I can see how ginger can be made to work and how its use could be justified and defended, even if I don’t like it myself. I don’t suppose the people who do (or did) it really hate their horses - quite the reverse in fact.
I agree personal attacks are counterproductive.[/QUOTE]
Adding gauges to reins, or to boots to see how hard some may kick a horse, or to our bottoms to measure how much we may be using our seat, that seems like a good idea if you are following some testing protocol, but for competition, that seems a little bit farfetched.
Dressage has never been about judging by measuring how much one may hold onto the reins or kick or weight the saddle down.
I really don’t see that you may compare RK to using ginger in a horses behind to make him stick his tail up.
I consider RK to be no different than putting a rider on a horse’s back, or a bit in a horse’s mouth, as one more way to train, not irritate a horse, as ginger is.:eek:
Comparing apples and bananas doesn’t do us much good.
[QUOTE=mbm;4652115]
first of all, i would imagine there is a difference between training at home and the info they sell at their clinics. If nothing else Sjef is a very good businessman.
as for release. how do you release when a horse is in a degouge and draw reins wiht its nose to its chest?
and have you see n some of the videos of the riders using rollkur? it is pretty clear what is beign done - no matter what they say.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never been to Holland (would LOVE to go). But Angela Walkup from “horsegirltv” was recently training at Anky’s and she sent a thread to COTH that she did NOT see any Rollkur going on.
Have you been to Holland?
Also re. the clinics - many of these are to specifically demonstrat HOW, WHY and WHEN they use rollkur
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use