Do you practice Rollkur?

[ThreeFigs]

But if the horse is not shown in a rollkur position, how do the judges KNOW?

By the rules, at least, they are supposed to judge what is presented in front of them, not what’s gone on in the warm-up. I understand in reality, we all “know” who schools a certain way.

While you may be able to monitor what happens in a schooling ring, you have little control over what happens back home. Unless the abuse is egregious, as it was with that woman who was caught on tape by a groom, it does not come to light.

I think the problem is, to one ring steward, it looks like RK, to another, just a little overbent. A ban on RK will be hard to enforce because in difference of perception.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=Unprovoked92;4642934]
DA, I’ve gathered you are one[/QUOTE]No, I’m not a judge, but I bet you gathered that from Egon’s posts ;)?

Been a professional, successful artist for 30+ years already and my art website is in my signature if you would like to browse it.

[Unprovoked92]

But there are trends in the show ring that are making it possible for horses to win when IMO they aren’t 100% correct. There seems to be a trend toward horses getting ridiculously high score that don’t seem to be using there hind ends properly. Horses winning medels when they blow up during a movement of a test (and still scoring a 6 on it). The judges should judge only whats in front of them, but they need to reward the trends they want to see. Like I said with WP, the judges don’t place them based on what they see in the warm up ring, its whats in front of them. Just because the horse isn’t being ridden in rollkur in the show ring doesn’t mean there aren’t signs that something isn’t right.

No, I do not feel like the judges should punish riders if they think they train in rollkur, but they should punish riders who’s horses are stiff in the mouth, shoulders and neck, are not tracking up properly for the level they are competing in and are behind the verticle.

[Moderator_1]

We’ve removed a number of off-topic, personal and/or inflammatory posts to keep this thread on topic. It’s fine to disagree, but the personal digs back and forth are inappropriate and don’t contribute to the discussion.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Unprovoked92]

Sorry, DA…guess I should get my facts straight! But it doesn’t change the fact that I feel like the judges need to take a stand and change the way they score and base it on the horse in front of them, not the name/nationality or the…“oooo look at how faaancy that one is up front!”

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4641379]
Yes, they seems to follow around to every post and thread to just derail it and inject their own agendas.[/QUOTE]

All they are doing is trying to get things ugly so the mods shut it down…and they think they are cleaver.

[nhwr]

I put a horse in training with someone who schooled with Anky and Sjef for about a year. History on the horse was I couldn’t ride for a number of months so I left my horse with my (different) trainer who had no clue how to deal with a big strong and sensitive WB. She rode the horse in draw reins for months and I thought the horse was ruined. In desperation, I took horse to the “Rolkurista”. Total turn around for the horse, it went from barely able to do 1st level back to working 3rd in about 4 months, totally changed (correct) musculature. Horse was not abused, loved the rolkurista trainer, would call to him from the stall whenever he waked by.

I didn’t (don’t) ride that way. But I wouldn’t hesitate to put another horse in training with the rolkurista.

[ridgeback]

The problem with RK is it is abuse in 90% + hands but I don’t think it is with an Anky, Gal, Hans etc etc.

[edit]

[mp]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4642973]
No, I’m not a judge, but I bet you gathered that from Egon’s posts ;)?[/QUOTE]

More likely from your numerous posts here on being an “L” judge graduate. With distinction.

[bort84]

@nhwr;4643068

I put a horse in training with someone who schooled with Anky and Sjef for about a year. History on the horse was I couldn’t ride for a number of months so I left my horse with my (different) trainer who had no clue how to deal with a big strong and sensitive WB. She rode the horse in draw reins for months and I thought the horse was ruined. In desperation, I took horse to the “Rolkurista”. Total turn around for the horse, it went from barely able to do 1st level back to working 3rd in about 4 months, totally changed (correct) musculature. Horse was not abused, loved the rolkurista trainer, would call to him from the stall whenever he waked by.

I didn’t (don’t) ride that way. But I wouldn’t hesitate to put another horse in training with the rolkurista.

An excellent support to my theory that very very few top riders who use rollkur are poor trainers and horse abusers. They are obviously extremely talented horsemen who happen to use one technique I don’t agree with at all. There’s a reason they still turnout top horses: they are excellent trainers. However, I think most of them would be better served by using a different method than rollkur in instances where they feel rollkur is necessary. They have the talent to work without rollkur, and that’s what makes me scratch my head.

[mbm]

I Agree that the way to “ban” rollkur is to change what the judges feel needs to win. How we are going to accomplish that i have no clue

The problem is that what is winning right now sells… and at this point that is what seems to matter most.

There is, BTW a petition online. if you want I can find the link for you.

I also agree with Bort - the top trainers using rollkur are excellent riders… they would be winning most likely if they didnt use rollkur - but rollkur produces what wins (why else use it?)

I totally believe the conversation about Rollkur needs to step away from the word “abuse” and focus more on what do we want from a top level horse? Is what is winning really all that and a bag of chips? Does it really match the rules?

To me it comes down to we have banned draw reins (and they are frowned on in general) but rollkur is just riding with draw reins without the extra set of reins. that is what we should focus on.

and, finally - I am not sure what witch hunt people talk about. in general, while these topics get heated - the people be attacked are the posters and not the top riders.

Except of course Scandics rider - he was vilified, but he did make a big error and i am sure he got spanked hard by Sjef et al for that PR disaster.

[egontoast]

I put a horse in training with someone who schooled with Anky and Sjef for about a year. History on the horse was I couldn’t ride for a number of months so I left my horse with my (different) trainer who had no clue how to deal with a big strong and sensitive WB. She rode the horse in draw reins for months and I thought the horse was ruined. In desperation, I took horse to the “Rolkurista”. Total turn around for the horse, it went from barely able to do 1st level back to working 3rd in about 4 months, totally changed (correct) musculature. Horse was not abused, loved the rolkurista trainer, would call to him from the stall whenever he waked by.

I didn’t (don’t) ride that way. But I wouldn’t hesitate to put another horse in training with the rolkurista.

Thanks for adding some much needed balance to the discussion.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4643720]
Thanks for adding some much needed balance to the discussion.[/QUOTE]

How is this balance it’s just an opinion? :no:

[egontoast]

Yes, what we see is in the eye of the beholder, the horses are not always better just because it is the approved way.

I see those horses up in the bridle, fighting hands, just as objectionable, if not more, than those that RK is said to have made so much more soft by overbending judiciously in training.

Do I like the extremes or fads? Of course not, but I am not going to tell those doing it and being successful how to play the game, not unless I was at their level an KNEW what I was talking about.
Practically all here are not, just as I am not, we are armchair quarterbacks at best.

RK as a training technique, I am not sure it is any worse than any one other way of training out there, not enough for this witch hunt of riders that may use and the extreme of claiming the high ethical ground and calling RK abuse and wanting to ban it.

If you really think so, think how many people just watching someone ON a horse, doing whatever people do on them, already considers that abusive and want to abolish horseback riding on principle.

While there are some basic tenents to how we handle horses properly, everyone will agree that beating a horse is abuse, judging what others do sometimes is, as I say, in the eye of the beholder.

It is good to question all we do in life, but please be reasonable.
It is not good to use our questions to bash others over the head, call them names and, if you really think about what you are doing, ruining reputations of those people that have and are making dressage what it is.:no:
A dose of humble is what I would suggest for those here that are taking this controversy a little too far.

Good thoughtful post, Bluey.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=mbm;4643669]
To me it comes down to we have banned draw reins (and they are frowned on in general) but rollkur is just riding with draw reins without the extra set of reins. that is what we should focus on.[/QUOTE]
Yes and I think that Rollkur will be banned at the shows eventually just like draw reins and twisted bits, but it will always be practiced in some barns. and that’s fine with me, riders can make their own choices in their privet barns.

The true concern is not skillful riders who know how to use it, but the copycats who don’t know how/where to learn it, but they see that it wins at public shows, so they might just go for it. And that will result in “the razor in the monkey’s hands” - as Karl Mikolka (SRS) said once about draw reins in unskilled hands.

[Dressage_Art]

For people who ride/train rollkur, I’m wondering if it’ll be a big deal not to warm up in rollkur? Or they will try to fight this proposition to ban rollkur in the warm-up ring?

Is this “reasonable” proposition for rollkur folks?

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Moderator 1;4642992]
We’ve removed a number of off-topic, personal and/or inflammatory posts to keep this thread on topic. It’s fine to disagree, but the personal digs back and forth are inappropriate and don’t contribute to the discussion.

Thanks,
Mod 1[/QUOTE]

Very interesting how you edit some people’s post but not others.hmmm could it be someone in this thread is an actual mod??? :lol::lol: I’ve watched some interesting things pop up over the last year or so and I know I’m not the only one… How can someone edit their post even when someone has quoted it how do they have that ability if they are not a moderator. :eek::eek::eek::eek::lol::lol: I’m sure this will be removed.

[nhwr]

For people who ride/train rollkur, I’m wondering if it’ll be a big deal not to warm up in rollkur? Or they will try to fight this proposition to ban rollkur in the warm-up ring?
First you have to define what “rolkur” is. IMO, most people don’t really know.

But to answer your question on a more basic level, I found it to be a conditionig technique rather than a riding technique. To explain; my trainer used it to work with my horse. As said horse developed, it became much easier for me to ride in a conventional manner.

Still I rode the horse deep to warm up at shows. But then I have used this as a tool for sensitive horses in stressful environments for a long time (started doing it after reading von Zeigner) but just riding deep isn’t “rolkur”.

[Don_Raphaelo_Rollkur]

Yes.I do wonder about my humble post being removed!I am NOT this Theo.What has he done to you?BTW.I am Don Raphaelo Rollkurista and I do like to gently,carefully,and gradually over time,relax my horses jaw and neck until I can ride him in any number of REASONABLE postures.It is really about lowering the horses neck while retaining the same approx. degree of flexion that horse would go in at the vertical at its current level of training.I.E. Much more flexion in the G.P. horse than a horse working at A or L.I repeat.It is about relaxing the horses into lower stretched positions or postures if you will.Not PULLING them down and in!If a horse in G.P. frame is ask to hold that frame and lower his neck to somewhere close to a down and forward angle it will appear as though he was pulled there.At least to 2 of you.It is about a horse that is relaxed enough to really lower his neck while "maintaining the frame angle he had when he was up.So.To stay on topic and not be removed.I do ride what you call rollkur but I do not like that word.I prefer LDR.After that like all else in horsemanship the rest,degree,duration,where,when,why,and for how long is up to the good judgement or lack thereof of the rider.I have witnessed far,far more mouth,spur,whip,and exhaustion abuse by professionals riding at the vertical in the name of classical position than by my fellow rollkuristas by tenfold!In closing.Anyone who puts a horse into the Raminer or “on the bit” classical posture by pulling it in is riding badly.Anyone who deepens a horse,especially if it is to the degree of hyperflexion by pulling it in is riding badly!So!In closing.I would still like to have dinner and wine.Ciao, Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4641426]
Ok, allow me to rephrase my questions:

Do you practice rollkur?
Personally, on a regular basis, no.
Where did you learn rollkur?
At a clinic with a monster of a horse who desperately needed a sensitive, caring rider after years of what actually is abusive riding. Going into the canter, he would literally flip his lid because he was so used to being punished for literally every single move he made. And that overreaction was after he’d gotten better. Before, they were going to put him down because you couldn’t even get on him.
How did you learn rollkur?
Simple really, just gradually asking for more and more flexion. There’s no force involved, contrary to popular belief.
What did rollkur do for your horses?
With this particular horse, it took out everything and gave him a “happy place”, which he needed. It kept his head down, which prevented the rearing he was so quick to do because of the ripping the gears out into rein back and then beating him to go forward to “create impulsion” his former trainer was so fond of. Once he was actually able to do a couple transitions without me being awful to him, he relaxed and learned that he could trust me to allow him to do what I was asking him to do. It put him on the forehand, and he wasn’t exactly using his hind end, but it did allow him to realize that he could indeed change gaits without getting in trouble. Once we got past the trust issues, I was able to focus on building him up correctly, and never had to put him deep again.

If you are indifferent to the subject of rollkur, why do you bother posting on this thread?
Because I hope that one day reason, rather than emotion, will prevail.

B/c I’m not really interested in reading responses from people who can’t even pick a side pro or against, or from people who are just “sick” of hearing about rollkur, since that what I consider bitching with no results.[/QUOTE]
I have to be honest, you’re not coming off as interested in reading anything other than “OMG RK is sooooo awful!!!”. You point the finger at others as being pro-RK when they’ve repeatedly stated that they either don’t agree with it, or don’t agree with it, but also realize it’s not the end of the world.

I, personally, am not a fan of RK being used as it has been. I don’t think that scurrying around for multiple laps of the arena is doing any good. I know it’s supposed to be about stretching, but have you ever seen any other athlete stretch the same muscle for more than a minute? I don’t think so. At that point, you’re just putting the horse on the forehand and shooting the energy out the back. You also often end up with a very “rubbery” horse, which is a PITA to deal with. I find that these horses are good at “faking” a shoulder in, for example, by just moving their neck around but not really yielding the shoulder as they’re supposed to.

The way it’s being used now is, IMO, to keep the head down, similar to how I used it. But, I think that they should be beyond the point that I was and able to keep the horse soft and supple without such extreme measures by the time they get to the FEI level. And I definitely don’t think it’s doing any good when used for more than a few moments.