[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4644426]
I have to be honest, you’re not coming off as interested in reading anything other than “OMG RK is sooooo awful!!!”.[/QUOTE]
I would be interested to hear why you choose to ride that horse in Rollkur, why not just in Deep? Why Deep wasn’t enough? Why did you have to go that extra foot of curling down? Does it really make such a difference?
PS: Don Raphaelo Rollkurista, that question is also for you as well.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;4644145]
Very interesting how you edit some people’s post but not others.hmmm could it be someone in this thread is an actual mod??? :lol::lol:[/QUOTE]that would be something!
but - cant the mods edit any post - including the parts that are quoted?
they do that all the time!
i will say tho - that i find it odd that certain posters are free to post anything they wish no matter what that might be!
isnt there a 3 strikes systems here?
[QUOTE=mbm;4644497]
but - cant the mods edit any post - including the parts that are quoted?
they do that all the time!
i will say tho - that i find it odd that certain posters are free to post anything they wish no matter what that might be!
isnt there a 3 strikes systems here?[/QUOTE]
Yes mbm but what happened and it this was quite awhile ago I quoted someone in my post and there was nothing wrong with what they said actually they were agreeing with me and they must have decided that was to much for them so they edited their post above mine and some how the quoted part of my post was edited as well. The only people that can do that is the mods and this person gets away with saying things others don’t so I’m pretty sure we have a mod among us that posts on a regular basis…JMO
We again removed some off-topic posts to keep the thread on the main topic, per our previous reminder. If you have a question about the moderation, please contact us directly.
Also, our newest contributor on this thread does not appear to be a previously banned user.
Thanks,
Mod 1
Why do I have the opening bars of Raspberry Beret sounding in my head?
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4644454]
I would be interested to hear why you choose to ride that horse in Rollkur, why not just in Deep? Why Deep wasn’t enough? Why did you have to go that extra foot of curling down? Does it really make such a difference?
PS: Don Raphaelo Rollkurista, that question is also for you as well.[/QUOTE]
Because that’s what worked with him. Horses are individuals, and we are the ones who have to adjust and tailor our training to them. It made a difference for him, and I’m not egotistical enough to think that it’s all about me and my personal convictions. The horse is the one that matters, not my dislike for shoes, spurs, whatever.
And seriously, quit being so inflammatory. “Extra foot of curling down” is just being silly. There is a huge difference between what is commonly considered “Deep”, and the photos of horses with their chins to their chest, and one can actually work within those perameters without going into extreme positions. Riding more than deep doesn’t automatically mean that the chin is touching the chest, or just inches away from doing so, so please stop trying to insinuate that and realize that there are multiple degrees in everything when it comes to horses.
Thanks for the thoughtful posts, Coopersmom.
My horses (arabs!) are all rubber-necked, wiggle worms to begin with, so I can’t imagine that roll-kur or even deep would ever be useful with them. But you explained very clearly (to me, anyway) why someone might need those tools for a particular kind of horse. As you pointed out, training is finding out what works well for each individual horse. Or as a friend says, you gotta ride the horse you have.
I will say this only one time more.If you curl the head down you are doing it wrong regardless of degree.A GP horse shown in “presentation” posture will have his chin much closer to his throatline than the same horse when he was at 4 yrs.That horse which has lowered his neck to the point where the 6th and 7th cervical vertibae begin to stretch out or down,in the same manner as down and forward,but with the same angle between the chin and throat will look to you as though curled.It is not pulled in,it is stretched,and in a relaxed manner.If it is not, it is not being done well.Please consider making arch villains out of all bad riders,not LDR riders. If you must champion a cause perhaps,as has been pointed out in the past,try to stop the racing of horses at 2 yrs. For those who have ask for more information,on youtube there are many interviews,seminars,and clinics by modern LDR riders and their mentors to inform yourself with.I suggest the excellent work of Van Grunsven,Werth,and Hester to begin with.Hester’s class where he rides with a headset and speaks of what he is doing and why he is doing it is excellent and easily found on youtube.One more point.I might spend a day with my camera around any busy dressage stall and at the end of the day have many bad photos of many great riders no matter which style they make practice of.Furthermore.LDR horses should have their posture changed regularly.Each posture if performed in relaxation will evole to a slightly or greatly different gymnastic effect.This way the entire horse is gymnastically developed in a manner that is more complete than with the older schools.All of the previous masters works are valued and included in the modern school.Van Grunsven has said this clearly in many interviews.Consider these points.If I was moving a horse from a medium LDR frame toward hyperflexion and I sensed dismay or discomfort in the horse I would stop there and work towards increased flexion another day when the horse was more prepared.You have ask me to explain myself and now I have.Please,please be more peaceful,ride well,enjoy life!And perhaps,ask me to have dinner and some wine! Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
So Don,
Would you have dinner and lots of wine with me?
[QUOTE=Don Raphaelo Rollkurista;4645577]
Consider these points.If I was moving a horse from a medium LDR frame toward hyperflexion and I sensed dismay or discomfort in the horse I would stop there and work towards increased flexion another day when the horse was more prepared.You have ask me to explain myself and now I have.Please,please be more peaceful,ride well,enjoy life!And perhaps,ask me to have dinner and some wine! Don Raphaelo Rollkurista[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your explanation. What I would love to hear is a more detailed explanation when deep is not enough for that particular horse? How do you decide that this particular horse will do even better with rollkur? To me, 99% of the rollkur reasoning sounds that could be achieved with just riding a Deep method. I do not understand why some horses need rollkur to achieve the same?
And I’d love to have a dinner with you and talk about RK to further understand it.
Be peaceful with ALL your horses, respect them, and enjoy riding them as well. (but some people in my opinion need a smack down for how they treat their horses! Aka “blue tongue” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4&feature=related )
my question would be: what does rollkur provide that classical training does not?
Raph ( if I may call you that) I hope you don’t mind but I added some spaces /paragraphs to your post because I’m sure I was not the only one having trouble with the wall of words. Cheers! 
I will say this only one time more. If you curl the head down you are doing it wrong regardless of degree. A GP horse shown in “presentation” posture will have his chin much closer to his throatline than the same horse when he was at 4 yrs.
That horse which has lowered his neck to the point where the 6th and 7th cervical vertibae begin to stretch out or down, in the same manner as down and forward, but with the same angle between the chin and throat will look to you as though curled. It is not pulled in, it is stretched, and in a relaxed manner. If it is not, it is not being done well.
Please consider making arch villains out of all bad riders, not LDR riders. If you must champion a cause perhaps, as has been pointed out in the past, try to stop the racing of horses at 2 yrs. For those who have ask for more information, on youtube there are many interviews, seminars, and clinics by modern LDR riders and their mentors to inform yourself with.
I suggest the excellent work of Van Grunsven, Werth, and Hester to begin with. Hester’s class where he rides with a headset and speaks of what he is doing and why he is doing it is excellent and easily found on youtube.
One more point. I might spend a day with my camera around any busy dressage stall and at the end of the day have many bad photos of many great riders no matter which style they make practice of.
Furthermore. LDR horses should have their posture changed regularly. Each posture if performed in relaxation will evole to a slightly or greatly different gymnastic effect. This way the entire horse is gymnastically developed in a manner that is more complete than with the older schools. All of the previous masters works are valued and included in the modern school. Van Grunsven has said this clearly in many interviews.
Consider these points. If I was moving a horse from a medium LDR frame toward hyperflexion and I sensed dismay or discomfort in the horse I would stop there and work towards increased flexion another day when the horse was more prepared.
You have ask me to explain myself and now I have. Please, please be more peaceful, ride well,enjoy life! And perhaps, ask me to have dinner and some wine!
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
[QUOTE=mbm;4645669]
my question would be: what does rollkur provide that classical training does not?[/QUOTE]
I can answer by explaining that, going back to my example of gymnastics, you can see pictures and movies of 50+ years ago gymnastic competitions, “classically trained”.
Then watch what gymnastic routines are today, the moves are way past any we could have attempted or thought about all those years ago.
Thru more exact and early training, we can do so much more with our bodies, if so desired.
Similarly with horses, especially in some disciplines, where the athleticism and movements possible are really way above what was possible when training was not as intensive, technical and complex as it is today.
That the bar keeps being raised doesn’t mean classical training is being forgotten, but in some areas, we sure seem to be better than ever.
RK may or not be part of that, but for what I am hearing, it may have contributed in some of today’s training.
“Similarly with horses, especially in some disciplines, where the athleticism and movements possible are really way above what was possible when training was not as intensive,”
bluey - can you elaborate about this? aren’t the upper level tests easier nowadays? and i dont think there are any new movements?
now, if you mean that the manner in which the movements are done is different, i will grant you that. but for example, what is shown nowadays as “collected trot” is more passage , and what is passage is- well… i am not sure 
extended trot looks more like Spanish trot etc. and piaffe looks like passage on the spot.
so, i guess if the goal is exaggerated over done movements - perhaps rollkur is needed after all.
but i will stand by my opinion that is not needed to produce classical dressage. and even if we talk about limbering up etc - if you study the horse anatomically and bio mechanically it is hard to understand why rollkur is used…
for oh $hit moments - all bets are off - but to produce correct classical dressage ?
Bravo Bluey.You have said it all.It should be easy to understand when stated in that way!Bravo!
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4639661]
COTHers, do you practice, ride, train Rollkur method? Do you do it at home or at the warm ups or at clinics? For how many years?[/QUOTE]
tried it w. ex-BF. No good.
Rollkur (just the position, not the way it’s being used in the warm-ups) has been proven to stretch parts of the neck and back. For a horse that is very stiff or tight, RK can help soften them up. Just like some people are just naturally not flexible (hello!) and need to stretch more and farther than someone who’s naturally flexible. The hyperflexion can help those who aren’t natuals stretch and limber up more than a less exaggerated position. Stretching for a few seconds will allow the horse to become a better athlete.
Or, like in my little whackadoo’s case, it can serve to create relaxation, which is one of the first stops on the training scale. Some go on a hack, others do walk excercises, my guy liked to be put in a deep position. I would rather have my horse relaxed and listening to me before moving on to trying to make him sit and really work. You can’t get anything done when they think they’re going to die
Or, you can use it to keep a horse from spooking. My mare (eventer) is pretty much convinced that anything she isn’t galloping straight at is going to kill her. Putting her deep (no RK with her, just a little deep) limits her field of vision and gets her attention on me so that we can work on what we need to.
As far as producing classical dressage, wasn’t it Baucher who had crazy pictures of flexing the horse’s neck? Is that not just hyperflexion at the halt? Pretty much every book you read regarding classical dressage has pretty extreme flexions, the only difference is that it’s done at a stand still. What changes when you start moving?
Then there are two ideas of classically teaching a horse to balance. One group thinks horses should be balanced at the halt, the other in motion.
Just food for thought. I don’t think it’s always black and white classical. I think it’s a bit like the Bible; the farther back you go to try and find the exact way to do it, the more differences come up, so you just have to pick what works for you…
where has it been proven? what does it stretch and why would it be beneficial to stretch it in that manner? does this stretch cause issues elsewhere while it is being done?
For a horse that is very stiff or tight, RK can help soften them up.
how does taking the nose to chest help soften a stiff horse? if they are stiff taking them that extreme would be very detrimental… if you are talking about just general stiffness , correct school figures used correctly will give you all you need. especially since in general a stiff neck/poll/jaw if an error of the hind end.
The hyperflexion can help those who aren’t natuals stretch and limber up more than a less exaggerated position. Stretching for a few seconds will allow the horse to become a better athlete.
again, a very stiff horse or person should in no way be taken to such an extreme stretch! you would rip tendons and muscles. the stiffer the muscles the less you can do… and the more you have to go in small increments…
As far as producing classical dressage, wasn’t it Baucher who had crazy pictures of flexing the horse’s neck? Is that not just hyperflexion at the halt? Pretty much every book you read regarding classical dressage has pretty extreme flexions, the only difference is that it’s done at a stand still. What changes when you start moving?
Boucher is a very contrversial trainer. and no, his early years are not really considered “classical” - they are generlaly considered to be incorrect training… you can read this in many of the old school books.
as for “pretty much every book you read regarding classical dressage has pretty extreme flexions” i would ask you to prove that. please list the books, pages of the images etc.
Then there are two ideas of classically teaching a horse to balance. One group thinks horses should be balanced at the halt, the other in motion.
i dont think it is that simple… i think it is balance through movement (german) and balance before movement (french) - both want correct balance with the horse in self carriage etc.
Just food for thought. I don’t think it’s always black and white classical. I think it’s a bit like the Bible; the farther back you go to try and find the exact way to do it, the more differences come up, so you just have to pick what works for you…
i never said anything was black and white and i agree there are a lot of differences in classical dressage - however i think a few things can be said to be global: the idea that the horse should be in balance, that the horse should have pure gaits, self carriage, (eventually) collection. that hand riding is bad, and until recently that btv was not a good thing, that riding on the forehand is detrimental, etc etc.
lots of things are universal.
and finally, i will say that the more i learn the more i think the masters were geniuses and that we are very lucky that some of them wrote stuff down so we can learn from them.
and i also know that i only know what i know now, and probably stuff i think is correct now will be modified , clarified or perhaps refuted.
that is the cool thing about learning never a dull moment
mbm, there have been studies posted that show that the back/neck stretches when in this position. You’ve seen them, don’t pretend you didn’t
They also say that it causes the horse to fall on the forehand and the hind end to shoot out behind them, which is why I personally don’t like the way it’s being used in warm-ups. A stretch shouldn’t last that long. The way it’s being used, it’s causing the horse to work incorrectly and keep the head down (like how I used it).
And, again, I ask everyone to use a little reason. Of course the head isn’t yanked down and cranked in to the point that the nose is touching the chest and muscles/tendons are being ripped and damaged. AGAIN, things must be done progressively and in moderation to be beneficial. AGAIN, there are varying degrees of deep, from just a tiny bit to chin-to-chest. Remember that you can positively work within those perameters without going to an extreme position.
Not to be cranky, but can we please use a little common sense and keep our heads on. Acting like everything is extreme; the horse is forced down, cranked in, chin touching the chest every single time with no stretching and no warm-up is ridiculous. I have repeatedly preached moderation, working within varying degrees, and using it as a stepping stone to establishing correct work. Quit pretending I’m saying that the horse should have his chin yanked to his chest the moment he comes from the stall and is ridden like that for 30 minutes at a time.
I’m perfectly open to discussion and don’t mind answering questions, since I apparently am one of the only ones to say anything, but if it gets stupid, I really don’t want to deal with it. Being so extreme and not actually reading makes it pretty clear that you (collective, not specific) aren’t interested in discussion, you’re interested in a “Gotcha” moment where you can condemn someone as some kind of jerk who yanks their horse’s head down and doesn’t care about their welfare. Read what’s there, not what you want to hear in order to continue your rant against rollkur.
As an aside, mbm, could you explain to me the difference between “before movement”, and “at the halt”/“through movement” and “In motion”. I’d love to know if there’s some way a horse can not be moving without standing still, or be moving without being in motion. It is that simple, you just re-wrote what I said. You’re simply disagreeing to disagree here, methinks
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