[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4639661]
COTHers, do you practice, ride, train Rollkur method? Do you do it at home or at the warm ups or at clinics? For how many years?[/QUOTE]
for a long time…at home and everywhere…happily and without worry…so do my horses…hehe!
The lady MBM does not want to grow or understand LDR.Only to be known to the world as "the Knight who has slain the dragon."I have tried to help but I see it will be to no avail with some.There are good people here.On both sides of the debate!But I fear the greatest voice on the anti side is probably the least experianced in ACTUALLY developing dressage horses through the levels and her anger is really in not being able to do more.I have seen this with many well meaning aspirants that could not complete the task for six decades.I have ridden LDR for only one and one half.I was skeptical in the beggining but when shown the way more and more sure it is an elaboration of classical method not a replacement or even an alternative.This has been interest but to be quiet and peaceful with horses may be better for me.
Goodbye,
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista
P.S.
Of course Baucher rode his horses in Raminer Outre[exagerated on the bit]while in motion.Reference the chapter titled Raminer Outre in Training the Saddle Horse by Kerbrecht.Yes this was in Baucher’s second manner
I’m perfectly open to discussion and don’t mind answering questions, since I apparently am one of the only ones to say anything, but if it gets stupid, I really don’t want to deal with it. Being so extreme and not actually reading makes it pretty clear that you (collective, not specific) aren’t interested in discussion, you’re interested in a “Gotcha” moment where you can condemn someone as some kind of jerk who yanks their horse’s head down and doesn’t care about their welfare. Read what’s there, not what you want to hear in order to continue your rant against rollkur.
Thanks for having the energy to continue with this discussion in the face of the above. I hope you will continue to post in order to provide balance to the discussion.
lol Don Juan, I have thought exactly that about rolkur - that is was Baucher with an accent from les Pays Bas. I mention it once (can’t member if it was here or on TOB). You should have heard the wailing :eek:
To me this method is about more than riding deep. It taught my horse about balance in motion. Perhaps that can be done classically too (in fact I know it can) but in the case of my horse, who was not particularly flexible in the neck and pole to begin with, something more was needed. After 6 months in draw reins, it simple wasn’t possibe for the average human to push 17 hds of incorrectly developed muscle through a locked poll to the bit.
As I said previously, I don’t ride this way. I am a competent rider but I think to be effective in this manner, the rider must have excellent feel and timing to use the lateral flexion aspects of this methods.
I think of it like a double bridle or any type of bit, really. In the hands of a person that lacks finesse, all of these things can be used in a way that is improper. But that is an indictment of the rider, not the tool.
Just stopped in to see how the catfight’s going. I’m gratified to see some reason and balance has been injected into the discussion.
I agree with Copper’s Mom and Don Juan R. and others that there are times and places to put a horse into a deeper position. Whether or not you call it “Rollkur” probably depends which side of the fence you’re on.
ANYTHING taken to extremes is dangerous. One drink over dinner is a social lubricant. Too many Martinis lead to hangovers and worse. One slice of cheesecake is a treat. The whole cake is gluttony. A bit LDR can stretch and supple a horse. LDR done badly or excessively becomes “Rollkur”.
Completely agree with DJR’s assessment of the situation and opinions expressed here.
I was taught dressage in Russia = I know Baucher methods quite well. No, rollkur is not Baucher and even Baucher denounced some of his methods as well. Flexing horse’s neck can be beneficial, Deep method can be beneficial, but if it’s taken to extreme as rollkur = it is very dangerous in the hands of most.
And what I saw first hand of rollkur training doesn’t not produce a happy horse but produces results similar to the PK blue tongue horse. And I would not call that a “balanced” or “happy” training at all.
But I would love to see a video of “correct” and “happy” rollkur training session.
So DA, what is RK to you?
To me, it’s anything past the 45 degree mark behind the vertical. Above that is deep, below it is RK.
What is it to you? Is it only riding the chin to the chest? Because I think that if that’s your only qualification, you’re really narrowing it down too much to have a good discussion.
All things in moderation. Including being open to being wrong. Now one wouldn’t want to flip flop and heartily agree with all diverging opinions, as one would be have to be gullible and spineless to behave that way, and not have their own opinion and ideas as a foundation to work from at all. So that’s not good. But one wouldn’t want to be so rigid as to know in every fiber of their being, that they are right and have it all, all figured out, either. That wouldn’t leave even the slimmest chance to learn something new, nothing to contemplate, it would not leave even the dimmest shade of a lightbulb moment. Asking a question that you feel there is only one perfect answer to- your own answer- is nothing more than self-gratifiying mental masturbation. No one wants to watch that, do they?
Beyond all that- I really want to take a sec to thank Coppers Mom for the very reasonable and thoughtful contributions you’ve made, as well as those by Raph the Rollkurista.
CM, may be we can have a “good discussion” during the dinner, but in the last week, I pretty much got convinced that it’s impossible to have it here.
There are too much unquestionable statements, ridiculing, personal attacks, and very little of learning and compromise. I can type a page detailing what is the difference of BTV, Deep and RK in my eyes, and yet in the very next post somebody will accuse me going crazy if I’ll see a slight, momentarily BTV = which is far away from the truth, but still impossible to convey, so it’s really pointless.
There are too much unquestionable statements, ridiculing, personal attacks, and very little of learning and compromise
Please direct us to any of your posts which show any openess to compromise.
Dressage art you are passionate but you are open. Don’t worry about the bullies. If you were to watch Hans ride his mare I think you would see something you weren’t opposed to it. You just haven’t seen it yet. I do agree with you that in most hands it does not work and can make a horse mental and most of the people on this board have no business using it as a training tool. IMO
There are books by Baucher himself,his two personally trained protogeges,Favorote de Kerbrecht,and Alexis Le Hotte,and more recently Jean Claude Racinet that describe the excecution of Ramener Outre.In fact there IS an entire chapter dedicated to this in De Kerbrechts book Trainiing the Saddle Horse.It describes in clear and easy to understand language with drawings ,so there can be no misunderstanding,the act of using direct flexion of the jaw to gradually bring the exagerated Ramener to the point where the forehead of the horse comes close to facing the ground and the chin approaching but not coming all the way to the chest of the horse.This is a fact!I own these books and they all concur!And,it is universally accepted a fact that these great trainers and authers where dedicated protoges of Baucher himself.Not the trickledown Baucherism of Fillis which is the only kind ever introduced to Russia.DA.Your problem is that you do not have the FACTS.One cannot say for sure 150 years later that modern LDR trainers think they are practicing Baucherism,but it is for sure that Baucher practiced and taught Ramener Outre,HIS TERM,the act of extreme behind the vertical flexion,achieved through relaxation of the jaw.DA.You do yourself a disservice when you speculate in regards to some things that are in reality facts that can easily be proven.I would photocopy these pages and send them to you but I believe it would serve you better to go through the trouble and difficulty to attempt to find these old publications yourself.Read them yourself,and then you may respect what you have learned.Also,this is from Baucher’s second manner the only part that Kerbrecht,Le Hotte,and Beudant practiced and wrote about.I can also suggest Hilda Nelson’s excellent books on Baucher and Le Hotte.They are masterworks and give great insight into the lives and practices of these great men.What is you Americans say?Yes.Wise Up!
Do I practice Rollkur?
Yes --but only on myself sitting in front of the TV attempting to do Wai Lana yoga on PBS…;):lol:
I’ve read all of the Baucher-ism books as well as trained with his followers. There main difference with rollkur is that Baucher methods were MOMENTARILY flexions with flex and release not to make feel the horse to be trapped. Inviting the horse to flex is completely different than forcing the horse to flex and stay there. No, you can not cover rollkur by Boucher’s teachings. Rollkur took some of the Boucher’s concepts and took them in to the absolute extreme, not only practiced momentarily at halt laterally, but for a long periods of time at all gaits and mostly not even laterally, but longitudinally: absolute closure of the neck, nose to chest. That is quite different from fluid open neck flexions. Just like you can’t say that SP trains in rollkur = b/c it is not rollkur, it is Deep method. There is a distinctive difference between those.
Absolute closure of the neck = that is rollkur and this is an extreme method that can be quite dangerous to the horse in most hands.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;4647587]
Dressage art you are passionate but you are open. Don’t worry about the bullies. If you were to watch Hans ride his mare I think you would see something you weren’t opposed to it. You just haven’t seen it yet. I do agree with you that in most hands it does not work and can make a horse mental and most of the people on this board have no business using it as a training tool. IMO[/QUOTE]
Ditto.
Absolute closure of the neck, rollkur is an extreme method that can be quite dangerous to the horse in most hands. I see that my point of view is clearly outnumbered in web COTH BB. I’m blessed to be surrounded with overwhelming anti-rollkur supports in real life. And I just hope that I will never have to ride in the same warm up arena with PK “blue tongue” and likes.
I hope that horse lovers will be able to see past the cover of “rainbows” and “butterflies” of rollkur that “it’s good for the horse” such PK “blue tongue”. I really hope that this is NOT the future of the competitive dressage, since I love to show myself, but I will not want to show or volunteer in the shows with rollkur.
DA, the only one not willing to have a discussion is you. You’re not interested in having a logical conversation, you wouldn’t even answer a simple question in order for both parties to understand each other! You’re only interested in whining about how bad RK is. You aren’t reading what’s there, you’re reading what you want to be there. I have to say, I’m starting to question whether or not you even really know what you’re talking about, or if you’ve just found a bandwagon to jump on. I’m going with the bandwagon on this one, since your posts don’t show a single bit of an attempt at thinking, and are nothing but regurgitated propoganda.
This is pointless. I’m taking my ball and going home. Next time you wonder why every RK thread turns into a train wreck, and why no one wants to “have a discussion”, it’s because of crap like this.
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4647568]
CM, may be we can have a “good discussion” during the dinner, but in the last week, I pretty much got convinced that it’s impossible to have it here.
There are too much unquestionable statements, ridiculing, personal attacks, and very little of learning and compromise. I can type a page detailing what is the difference of BTV, Deep and RK in my eyes, and yet in the very next post somebody will accuse me going crazy if I’ll see a slight, momentarily BTV = which is far away from the truth, but still impossible to convey, so it’s really pointless.[/QUOTE]
I will excuse some of what you posts as, being an artist, maybe displaying a little too much of the traditional artistic temperament on hand when posting so eloquently.
I also think that the facts as you describe there are not, as you accuse, describing those that don’t agree with you, but that you may want to look in the mirror before pointing those fingers at others in how they comport themselves on COTH and how they describe RK and their interest in it.
Just sayin’.:no:
Dressage Art I don’t think your view is out numbered you just have to look at both petitions that were signed for or against. The FEI is having meetings on this because there are thousands screaming about this method. I don’t think PK is a bad guy or rider and I think the video was not fairly done. I understand that the anti-rollkur people think it is a mentally abusive form of training and that is not something you can show as easily as physical abuse. I see both sides of this issue and it might not be as black and white as some think on both sides of this issue.
DA has been adamant, several times now, that she won’t ride in the same warm up as someone using what she defines as RK.
That used to be called being a bad sport, when someone complained on what others were doing, just because they didn’t like it, especially if they beat you.
What happened to riding the horse you are on and performing in front of a judge to get that opinion, not wanting to impose our ideas on any and all others out there?
Bluey, it’s not about me and my horse, it’s about everyone else. DUH :rolleyes:
:winkgrin:
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