Do you practice Rollkur?

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4647737]
DA has been adamant, several times now, that she won’t ride in the same warm up as someone using what she defines as RK.

That used to be called being a bad sport, when someone complained on what others were doing, just because they didn’t like it, especially if they beat you.

What happened to riding the horse you are on and performing in front of a judge to get that opinion, not wanting to impose our ideas on any and all others out there?:([/QUOTE]

Bluey you are missing the point this isn’t just thinking I like this method better then this method thousands of anti rollkur believe it is mental and physical abuse. We’ve had this discussion with the meat industry. People get passionate about these things.

Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo

[BaroquePony]

Coppers mom,

I thought your post was excellent and you took the time to provide a very good explanation for your reasoning and it all seemed very humane and appropriate for the horse you were using it on.

I just want to say thank you for taking the time for such a well thought out post on this thread.

ETA: I still would not use riding Deep or Deeper on my own horses or any that I train.

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4647753]

Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo[/QUOTE]

We did, she wouldn’t have anything to do with it. shrug

[Bluey]

—“Originally Posted by ridgeback
Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo”—

I think that I am not the only one missing the points of this discussion.:no:.

As for being bullied, maybe those against RK and so vocal should think who is the bully here, when seen from those that are training and riding, minding their own business and a herd of cyber dressage computer riders, many that may not even ride horses or compete in dressage, come down on them to tell them they are abusing their horses and how to ride?

[BaroquePony]

a herd of cyber dressage computer riders

Ugh. So if we use computers that means we can’t be good horseman or riders?

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Bluey;4647815]
—“Originally Posted by ridgeback
Maybe some should try and see it from dressage arts point of view because there are thousands like her and things just might change because of it. Instead of bullying her try and understand. jmo”—

I think that I am not the only one missing the points of this discussion.:no:.

As for being bullied, maybe those against RK and so vocal should think who is the bully here, when seen from those that are training and riding, minding their own business and a herd of cyber dressage computer riders, many that may not even ride horses or compete in dressage, come down on them to tell them they are abusing their horses and how to ride?[/QUOTE]

I Understand but honestly they have the numbers, USDF and Dressage today both came out against RK and the FEI is not ignoring the 10,000+ petition signers. From experience in the dog world you are not going to get everyone to see your side but when people are so condescending you will never get anyone to see your side(the pro rk side).

[katarine]

but when people are so condescending you will never get anyone to see your side(the pro rk side).

Ridge, I don’t have a proverbial dog in this fight. But I read Coppers Moms thoughtful posts, and then I read Dressage Art’s posts, what I see is the latter being condescending, consistently, and without fail. Things like if ‘deep was good did you HAVE to pull him in another foot?’ - if she’s going for expressive what she’s giving is, in fact, dramatic condescending, judgement.

She’ll have to be open to being wrong about it, at all, anywhere, in anyone’s hands…for this to be a conversation.

S0, question for DA: When you read over what Copper’s Mom posted: is what she posted about doing, and what NHWR posted about doing: in any way, on any day…ok? Ever? Or Never?

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=katarine;4647876]
but when people are so condescending you will never get anyone to see your side(the pro rk side).

Ridge, I don’t have a proverbial dog in this fight. But I read Coppers Moms thoughtful posts, and then I read Dressage Art’s posts, what I see is the latter being condescending, consistently, and without fail. Things like if ‘deep was good did you HAVE to pull him in another foot?’ - if she’s going for expressive what she’s giving is, in fact, dramatic condescending, judgement.

She’ll have to be open to being wrong about it, at all, anywhere, in anyone’s hands…for this to be a conversation.

S0, question for DA: When you read over what Copper’s Mom posted: is what she posted about doing, and what NHWR posted about doing: in any way, on any day…ok? Ever? Or Never?[/QUOTE]

This thread is how many pages long? It gets frustrating when you have people like egontoast who is very condescending and acts like a bully most of the time so DA got defensive and by the time copper’s mom posted something it was to late. Just an observation.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4647827]
Ugh. So if we use computers that means we can’t be good horseman or riders?[/QUOTE]

Of course not.
What I mean is that here, in this discussion, some are taking the high road about what RK is or is not with little to go by, other than following bandwagons.
That always gets me pointing that out, regardless of who’s side I would have taken if I was involved.

I have watched this RK discussion with interest, but again and again, with very few that really know what RK is or feels like, seems that many against this are just being hardheaded, even in the face of some constructive debate.

On a very slow day, I too had something to say about this, especially when this debate is involving the good name of some trainers and competitors that are at the top now and this just keeps seeming to me a sad witch hunt, the way it is conducted.

If there is merit to how some feel about this, they lose their credibility sometimes by the way they are going at objecting to RK, with some over the top proclamations, I think.

That is my point with DA and other’s words here (NOT DA, that I don’t know who she is).:yes:

[katarine]

Dressage Art has not started living until she can rise above the narrow confines of her individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all dressage.- Katarine on COTH

If one’s goal is THE truth, not THEIR truth, it’s never too late. And whether it is frustrating or not, irrelevant.

My question stands.

[mp]

To Coppers mom and Don Raph and anyone else who tried to explain/took the bait, thanks for the insights. I’m not a fan of overflexion, but your posts made sense to me.

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4647915]
This thread is how many pages long? It gets frustrating when you have people like egontoast who is very condescending and acts like a bully most of the time so DA got defensive and by the time copper’s mom posted something it was to late. Just an observation.[/QUOTE]

To those who are trying to explain the histrionic behavior of others, please come up with something better than the “he/she started it first” defense. Oy …

[Coppers_mom]

[QUOTE=ridgeback;4647915]
This thread is how many pages long? It gets frustrating when you have people like egontoast who is very condescending and acts like a bully most of the time so DA got defensive and by the time copper’s mom posted something it was to late. Just an observation.[/QUOTE]

What?!

I’m sorry, but that’s stupid. Someone disagrees with you, and you call them a bully. That’s fine, I don’t care if you feel the need to act like you’re in the 3rd grade. But seriously? It’s too late to have a good discussion? If egontoast did anything wrong, it was PAGES ago! Get over it for crying out loud! Like I said, you don’t want to discuss, you want to whine.

This over-emotional, big meany poo poo head stuff makes me gag. This is why you can’t have a discussion with anyone, not because others are being condescending. You guys start with the most ridiculous stuff (“look at his eyes”, “put your chin to your chest and see how it feels”, and the general lack of reading skills) and THEN people jump on you for acting like a hysterical keyboard jockey.

I’ve argued this point before, and it still baffles me that people don’t understand that when you act like a big, incompetent baby, people will treat you like one. It’s especially frustrating for those of us who are opposed because of logical reasons. I hate being lumped into the busy-body, know nothing ammy group with people who reply like this because I don’t agree with RK as it’s being used.

[Bluey]

Or "I will not ride in the same warm up ring where some is “doing RK”.

That was a little bit, lets say, over the top.:lol:

Someone said there were 10.000 signatures against RK as if that was some kind of price they won.

I am glad that we are a republic, not a democracy, because sometimes, the majority can be wrong.
That is why we have representatives, to avoid a loud and sometimes clueless majority to guide by their sheer numbers.

I say let the process work, don’t push it over a cliff in haste and then wonder what happened.
Let the powers that be decide if and how much to regulate how training can be done in the warm up rings, as they have been doing for so long now and remember, next time it may be YOUR toes that some regulation may step on and you will be glad no one went around in a witch hunt to string you up for it.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;4647968]
What?!

I’m sorry, but that’s stupid. Someone disagrees with you, and you call them a bully. That’s fine, I don’t care if you feel the need to act like you’re in the 3rd grade. But seriously? It’s too late to have a good discussion? If egontoast did anything wrong, it was PAGES ago! Get over it for crying out loud! Like I said, you don’t want to discuss, you want to whine.

This over-emotional, big meany poo poo head stuff makes me gag. This is why you can’t have a discussion with anyone, not because others are being condescending. You guys start with the most ridiculous stuff (“look at his eyes”, “put your chin to your chest and see how it feels”, and the general lack of reading skills) and THEN people jump on you for acting like a hysterical keyboard jockey.

I’ve argued this point before, and it still baffles me that people don’t understand that when you act like a big, incompetent baby, people will treat you like one. It’s especially frustrating for those of us who are opposed because of logical reasons. I hate being lumped into the busy-body, know nothing ammy group with people who reply like this because I don’t agree with RK as it’s being used.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for showing exactly what I mean… You are lumping me in with things I have not said this is exactly my point. You make assumptions about people’s talent and skill level because they disagree with you. I’ve seen many ammy’s that can outride juniors and pros. Just because someone decides to call themself a pro means nothing.

[EqTrainer]

In reply to the OP’s question - if you consider the occassional whipping a horses head between his knees so that he cannot launch me onto the moon Rollkur, then I guess the answer is yes, I do it. Preferably to the tune of “Stayin’ Alive”… sans the white suit.

[Don_Raphaelo_Rollkur]

DA.You are again dead wrong regarding Baucher.In Kerbrecht it clearly states that these flexions are done at a standstill,then put in motion for longer periods.Will you agree to a friendly wager,shall we say 1000 euro?Then I will post these pages and let the gallery decide which of us has understood them.Again.I own these books!You do not have your FACTS straight.By the way.You continue to insist,in spite of what I have already explained,that LDR riders dont practice release and or lightening of the aids.This is preposturous!If that were true and frequently is with horses ridden at the vertical it would be bad riding!In LDR if it were true it would be bad riding!The great and prominant LDR riders of today are riding very light horses. I have been trying to help you.Perhaps more than to share with the others.If you continue your obtuse,confrontational diatribe full with half truths and outright fasle information that has the very real possibility to be trouble to many good persons ability to make a living,I must concede that you are beyond my ability to help you.I am 67 years old and have been trained to ride artistic dressage horses since the age of ten.I will not debate further.As I said I have hoped to help.
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

[mbm]

so, DRR - why do we see videos of rollkur’d horses not being released? we see videos of the riders with their feet on the dashboard, kicking the horse forward , pulling back , etc?

where is the release in that?

it is the ugly and forceful images that people are rebelling against (leaving aside the results in competition) …

[siegi_b]

mbm… the voice of the people!! I think you are suffering from a very large ego!

[Don_Raphaelo_Rollkur]

My last post.Iwill not be baited again.MBM.If you look at Totillas,Salinero,Bonfire,Gigolo,Warum Nicht,Satchmo[except for that piaffe thing.nobody’s perfect],Escapado with Carl Hester or Hans Peter up,Rembrant and many others and say you see heavyness or whatever it was you have said to me,you cant be helped.These people and their horses do beautiful work.I know a couple of them and they are kind,gentle people that will never hurt an animal!Imagine if someone who had never met one of your friends began making terrible public accusations about them.You would be livid.When you have completed the training of an Haute Ecole horse or two you may respect these people more even if you dont agree with them because you would then have the EYE to see that their work is free from violence and force and is simply different in posture.I no longer would enjoy dinner and wine with you or DA.But Caddy,PM me my darling!
Cioa,
Don Raphaelo Rollkurista

[CatOnLap]

elegantly spoken…err…written.

the comment on the actual bullying going on is apt as well.

Thanks some of you for a most spirited and recently educational topic.