Does anyone else do this? Am I crazy? (feeding)

[RhythmNCruise]

Interestingly, what I’m feeding now for fats (OHS and CocoSun, no Canola currently) is super Omega 3 heavy, even without the pasture factored into the diet (and make no mistake, he’s getting pasture…plenty now that he’s leaving his hay and grazing all day, just not enough to make him obese). The Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio with OHS and CocoSun is 0.34:1! If I replace the CocoSun (which is sunflower meal and oil and coconut meal and oil) with a half pound of BOSS, the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio is 0.99:1, which according to FeedXL is pretty much the ideal (1:1).

When the ratio is lower (pre-BOSS), FeedXL has a note saying that if the horse’s coat is dry or dull, adding Omega 6s can help.

So, I’ve been eyeballing those orange bags of BOSS at TSC pretty hard lately.

[luvmyhackney]

@RhythmNCruise

So, I’ve been eyeballing those orange bags of BOSS at TSC pretty hard lately.

If your horse is picky, buy a small bag first. Only 1 out of 3 of my horses will eat BOSS.

[RhythmNCruise]

Good idea. I’m going to pick up a little bag tomorrow and see what he thinks. If he rejects them, I know some birds and squirrels that won’t. I hope he likes them though. He likes the CocoSun, which is mostly BOSS meal (it’s black and oily) with sunflower oil and coconut meal and oil too. I think it has fenugreek added as well, which I know makes it tasty to him. But we’ll see. He seems like a horse that would like them. He’s eaten a dozen Zyrtec in his feed before without batting an eye, so hopefully he’ll do the same with BOSS.

[JB]

@RhythmNCruise

Interestingly, what I’m feeding now for fats (OHS and CocoSun, no Canola currently) is super Omega 3 heavy

How much of each are you feeding?

@RhythmNCruise

If I replace the CocoSun (which is sunflower meal and oil and coconut meal and oil) with a half pound of BOSS, the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio is 0.99:1, which according to FeedXL is pretty much the ideal (1:1).

FeedXL should NOT be saying that 1:1 is ideal. To start, there is no official ideal. The only thing we have to go on is that grass is roughly 4:1 Omega 3:6, so that is generally a ratio you want to be considering. Nowhere does any research anywhere say ideal is 1:1, not even close.

@RhythmNCruise

When the ratio is lower (pre-BOSS), FeedXL has a note saying that if the horse’s coat is dry or dull, adding Omega 6s can help.

Highly disagree. There’s never any good reason to add more Omega 6 to a diet if the horse is eating enough forage (hay or grass, doesn’t matter, both have PLENTY of O6)

[RhythmNCruise]

Interesting. Thanks for your input, JB.

I’m feeding 2 cups (340g) of OHS and 150g of CocoSun a day.

FeedXL says my horse is getting 63.6g of Omega 3 and 21.8g of Omega 6, but with a note that it’s probably not accurate because the amount of each in the hay (timothy or tim/orch mix) and the timothy pellets is unknown.

It sounds like, according to what you’re saying, that this is probably a good ratio given that the hay and pellets probably have a good amount of Omega 6?

And you’re right and I was absolutely mistaken! It says that the maximum to strive for is 1:1. That’s a big difference!

Thanks!
I’ll leave the BOSS at TSC.

[beowulf]

I don’t think you are crazy.

If your horse is out 24/7, some coat fading is natural. Some things bleach healthy coats further: intense periods of heat, going from wet-to-dry during sun exposure, sweat, and flyspray.

I’ve been tracking my herd’s fading every year with photos. I feed copper/zinc. They still bleach in the summer. Some years have been worse than others.

If it’s really hot or humid and the horse perspires, if that sweat dries out on them it does bleach the coat further. We’ve had a spell of unseasonably hot (90s+) weather, and they are sweating. This year most of my herd was “unseasonably” dark up until last week – the whole month of June was just non-stop rain, and now we are in unseasonably hot weather in the high 90s and between the flyspray and sweat they’ve all lightened up a shade or two. My horses in consistent work bleach more dramatically than the retires too, because they are usually working during sunlight hours and even a little sweat will bleach a coat.

That’s not to say bleaching isn’t caused by mineral imbalances. It can be. Just giving my 2 cents with a herd out 24/7 in hot summers, that are supplemented with copper/zinc and bleach anyways. Sometimes dramatically.

[RhythmNCruise]

@beowulf

My horses in consistent work bleach more dramatically than the retires too, because they are usually working during sunlight hours and even a little sweat will bleach a coat.

This makes me feel a bit better. One of my observations has been that there are other horses on the same farm (including a black, bays, sorrels, a palomino) that aren’t fading as much as my boy. But they don’t get ridden either! He’s an app, but he’s mainly sorrel with snowflakes on his rump and the occasional white spot/freckle on his sorrel parts and increasing white frosting as he ages (he’s 15 now). He’s a deep, rich, shiny sorrel in the spring and fall, and a flaming red sorrel in the winter, and almost looks dun or palomino in the summer when he bleaches. But he does get ridden regularly, and he does sweat (which I’m grateful for, he also tends towards anhidrosis when the heat/humidity reach their peak in the summer). I hose him off thoroughly at least once a day, whether he’s ridden or not (usually twice if he’s ridden…unless we get a good rainstorm that does it for me). But I coat him in fly spray, which I always feel like contributes, and no matter how much I try, he will sweat while I’m not there, and it will dry on him before I can get there to hose him down again.

I guess I need to just deal with it, LOL! He’s a happy, healthy horse. And thankfully, summer will be over soon. It’s definitely his worst season.

[RhythmNCruise]

Just for reference:
May 1st picture:

June 30th picture (thrilled to see the dressage saddle, obviously lol)

He’s lost his luster.

[Scribbler]

Two hitches in going crazy fine tuning your horses diet is that (1) you don’t have the hay numbers and (2) it’s hard to take into account individual differences except by trial and error and observation.

If it’s truly a high iron area with well water then you may need more copper and zinc. If horse is not getting much grass, you may need more vitamin E. I think there’s a blood test for E. If the horse has compromised hooves, you may want more copper zinc and biotin. If the horse is thin you may need alfalfa hay. Etc.

But you can get all this in a good Vitamin Mineral Supplement. I feel like, why reinvent the wheel?

I really like whole flax for the omega 3 and coat shine.

My human example is that if I stop taking my Centrum 55+ VMS I get bad calf cramps within a few days. Clearly need the calcium or magnesium. That’s idiosyncratic. My friends that don’t take any VMS don’t get cramps.

My father got into the multivitamin anti-aging fads in the 1980s buying health books that were the equivalent of bad internet advice today. He was mixing and matching all kinds of fads like niacin and megadoses of stuff. It did him.no.good at all, and he died of cancer in his mid/late 70s. So I’ve always been aware that you can go overboard tweaking vm to the point it’s counter productive.

[JB]

@RhythmNCruise

He’s an app, but he’s mainly sorrel with snowflakes on his rump and the occasional white spot/freckle on his sorrel parts and increasing white frosting as he ages

LP causes color shifting as well, so you’re never really comparing apples to apples over any given year.

[Annie10]

@JB

@Amberley

Try MegaCell. No added iron and it has the amino acids and probiotics included.

It’s a pretty mediocre v/m supplement. 0.85gm lysine 0.425gm methionine, substantially less than the current and new diet. The cu and zn aren’t terrible, but at only 75mg and 250mg respectively, that’s far less than the current diet and VB.

@Annie10

Throw some black oil sunflower seeds in his grain. It really helps

what would it help with? BOSS is very high on Omega 6 which isn’t needed, especially since there’s not a lot of grass.

I’ve had good luck with adding BOSS and seeing a marked decrease in fading .

[RhythmNCruise]

I’m starting to wonder if his anhidrosis is impacting his coat too. He’s getting almost bald (not bald, but definitely less hair) in places. The hair over his back feels brittle and dry and prickly almost. He’s still sweating a little and is on 4 scoops of One AC and 2 tbsps of salt a day, but it’s reaching that point in the summer when the lows barely get below 80 (it’s 78 out there right now a 6:53 AM). Breathing is still good and he seems happy otherwise, but maybe his coat is due to that more than anything.

Sorry, not what this thread is about! Thanks for all of the encouragement and suggestions here. I am definitely switching him from KIS Trace to Vermont Blend PRO to simplify (and improve!) the supplement situation. Looking forward to that.

[JB]

@Annie10

I’ve had good luck with adding BOSS and seeing a marked decrease in fading .

I don’t know what the rest of the diet was, and it could have simply been adding some oils which helped the health of the hair

[sorrelfilly721]

Question for @JB: in regards to probiotics, are they really alive in a supplement? I know human probiotics have to be refrigerated and don’t last forever. I don’t buy them for the horse because I’ve figured that after they’ve sat in a hot warehouse and then in my hot feedroom, they’re dead. Is there a process the feed companies are using to preserve them?

[2DogsFarm]

@Annie10

Throw some black oil sunflower seeds in his grain. It really helps

THIS!
COTH got me started adding BOSS to feed over 10yrs ago.
I am the Supplement Antichrist, that is the only thing I add to grain for 2 of my 3.
Their grain is whole oats. Period. Full Stop.
Plus grass hay & middling pasture.
Mini gets TC Sr in place of oats
All 3 are shiny & give the Lie to my complete lack of grooming
All 3 bays.
Horse fades minimally, the others not a bit.
I credit diet as horse did fade at his former owners, who fed a commercial pellet + supps I don’t recall (biotin? & ??).
Horse in Summer, before I got him:

Horse in Summer now:

[Scribbler]

The probiotics I have fed my horses have made a difference in halting chronic diarrhea but they are mostly yeast variants and lactobacillus which survive dry. I take Florastore if I feel like I’ve got a food borne colon issue, and they are dry capsules of a yeast variant.

[JB]

@sorrelfilly721

in regards to probiotics, are they really alive in a supplement?

Yes, some of them really are alive Saccharomyces boulardi and Lactobacillus reuteri are 2 that are proven to work and do what needs to be done for the things they can support

@sorrelfilly721

I know human probiotics have to be refrigerated and don’t last forever

Not all, and most equine biotics (that can even do anything) don’t have to be kept cold either.

[RhythmNCruise]

I think my guy is getting some of the benefits of BOSS through the CocoSun granular supplement, which has sunflower meal as the first ingredient. It’s very dark, rich, oily meal. It also has sunflower oil, coconut oil, and coconut meal in it, so I think it’s good stuff. He likes it (fenugreek powder too…mmm).

@JB, I have a question about Vitamin B1. FeedXL says my horse needs more (but…again, no hay analysis or pasture in the equation). I bought a bucket of the B1 crumbles since they’re cheap. I’ve only known B1 to be fed as a “calming” supplement (which obviously would only work if the horse was deficient). My horse is calm for the most part and is on supplemental magnesium already due to his tendency to be tight across the back (recommended by DVM/Chiro).
He can still get spooked by things, and can be a little wary/looky about some stuff that other horses seem to take in stride. Not major, I mean, deer can leap out in front of him and he barely turns an ear…but he lives with the deer and is used to them.

I guess my question is: is B1 helpful for anything besides “calming”?

[JB]

@RhythmNCruise

I have a question about Vitamin B1. FeedXL says my horse needs more

Unless a horse is getting a specific B1 supplement, they say all horses are deficient. I have NO idea why they don’t fix that to at least add a caveat that “Hey, don’t worry, horses make their own B vitamins pretty darn well, so unless you’re having a particular issue, he’s fine”

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, I’ve noticed if I plug in a complete feed instead of hay pellets and forage balancer, the B1 is fulfilled.

Which brings me to another thing on my mind. Kalm N EZ soy-free feed. I pop that in, and I can take away pretty much every supplement and he’s got a balanced diet. I’d keep OHS and I’d replace the KIS, TriAmino, and CocoSun with CocoHoof pellets.

This really cuts the expense and reduces the scoops of stuff a ton.