Does anyone else do this? Am I crazy? (feeding)

[RhythmNCruise]

So, I’ll preface this by saying I don’t get my hay tested because I buy in fairly small batches on a monthly basis and while I get it from the same dealer, the supply can vary. It’s timothy and sometimes timothy/orchard from NY (I’m in NC). Sometimes 1st cutting, sometimes second…basically, beggars can’t be choosers. I’m at a self-care barn with room for about 40-50 bales at a time max.

I’m feeding Standlee timothy pellets, Omega Horseshine, CocoSun (granules), and Canola oil for my “feed.”

I’ve been feeding KIS Trace for a few years now with pretty good results, but I find more and more that I need to add “a little more of this and that” to it to get things to balance better. He needs more magnesium and Vitamin E (natural), so I’ve been adding Uckele Mag Oxide and Ultra Cruz Natural Vit. E accordingly. He also needs probiotics, so he gets Probios. Recently I’ve even added TriAmino (despite KIS having a nice amino acid profile) because his topline looked somewhat lacking to me (though, I think this may have been a lack of calories and that has been addressed via more hay and the addition of the oil).

The thing that has prompted me to reevaluate his diet is that he has faded out considerably this summer. It’s not that unusual, he lives outside with access to an overhang and a stall with a fan, but he spends 95% of his time out in the sun. So, I know that this can be a copper issue, and I went to FeedXL and noticed that his iron to copper ratio was almost 5:1. Lots of iron in the grass, hay, and tim pellets.

So, I began doing some major research and comparison shopping and tweaking, and lo and behold, I can save money (over $1/day) and get a wonderfully balanced diet with better ratios of everything including iron to copper (3.6:1) by just supplementing copper, zinc, and selenium myself (which were the only things that needed to be added when KIS Trace was removed).

This means that along with the above “feed” (tim pellets, OHS, CocoSun, Canola Oil), my supplements would be:

• Natural Vitamin E (Ultra Cruz)
• Selenium (Ultra Cruz)
• Copper (Mad Barn)
• Zinc (Mad Barn)
• Magnesium Oxide (Uckele)
• TriAmino (Uckele)
• Iodized Table Salt (Morton)
• Probios

Keep in mind that I would be feeding all of that except the Selenium, Copper, and Zinc anyway. Those three bought separately are a fraction of what KIS Trace costs and I get more bang for my buck.

Horse is sensitive to legumes of any kind, hence the need to keep him on grass forage and vits/mins.

Am I nuts? Does anyone else supplement these things individually? I’ll admit, I kind of like having so much control over everything that goes into my horse, and I don’t mind having a million supplements. I make my own supplement cups for the week so that I don’t have to scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop a plethora of powders every feeding, and it really is no bother.

Please tell me I’m not alone. LOL.

[LCDR]

IMO you are overthinking his diet. Maybe he is fading out because it is so freaking hot this summer.

[Heinz_57]

@RhythmNCruise

Am I nuts? Does anyone else supplement these things individually? I’ll admit, I kind of like having so much control over everything that goes into my horse, and I don’t mind having a million supplements.

You are not nuts, mixing each element of the v/m yourself definitely saves money. What you listed is most of the basic ingredients in most forage balancers - think of it like buying each individual ingredient to make spaghetti sauce instead of buying a jar. The ingredients cost more up front but it’s much cheaper on a per serving basis, since you’re doing the calculating, mixing, and packaging yourself. Not minding having a million scoops of this and that is what will make it worth it. And if it turns out to be too much, you can always go back to a premixed forage balancer.

I don’t do this because there are not enough hours in the day, and with multiple horses it would make my head hurt. I have, however, considered having Horsetech make me a custom mix.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, it’s definitely freaking hot, but no hotter than usual where I am. I do wish the doofus would avail himself of his lavish amenities and take a break from the scorching sun a little more, but horses are gonna horse!

I guess he still might fade, but I still save money doing it single ingredient at least.

[RhythmNCruise]

Glad to know I’m not (too) nuts.

I used to have three horses (actually, I think I had up to six at one point in my life…eek), and now I’m down to one after his “big brothers” crossed the rainbow bridge over the past couple of years. He’s reaping the benefits of being the only horse of a childless, middle-aged woman! LOL!

[Pippigirl]

I don’t think you’re nuts lol! That sounds reasonable for supplements to me. I used to do that too. I had a few more than you do I really didn’t find it that bad to do. I just did a bunch of containers at a time and then ‘grab and go’. It didn’t take that much time.

[luvmyhackney]

I’m tempted but my pony is doing really well on Vermont Blend. I changed from California Trace only because he started turning up his nose at it.

I add extra magnesium, Vitamin E cause he’s muzzled, and 1/2 c. Flax. No fading at all.

[JB]

Vermont Blend Pro solves several of your issues:

• a bit more cu/zn than KT
• better pre/probiotic than Probios
• a little more lysine than KT
• 50% more Mg than KT
• has 13-14mg salt to KT’s none

@RhythmNCruise

his iron to copper ratio was almost 5:1.

That’s a GREAT ratio. There is no required fe:cu ratio, but having it as low as 5:1 is awesome.

You do need about 1:4 cu:zn, but you’re only guessing if you’re using a generic hay analysis.

I wouldn’t add more cu/zn to what’s in VBPro. 300/900mg is plenty

you’d only need to add maybe another 1tbsp of salt, if that, and that’s assuming he doesn’t voluntarily eat whatever you have out

You’d still need to add the Vit E

[Djones]

I have three horses. They all eat the same thing and the only difference is that I give Chippy even more sunflower seeds than the others and he gets a bit of shredded beet pulp.

Their base diet:

Alfalfa/Timothy pellets
Sunflower seeds
Loose minerals free choice
White salt block
Grazing when it’s available, Bermuda hay when it isn’t.

Toppy never, ever fades anywhere at all. He’s a tobiano. His black and brown parts are rich and lustrous. Gorgeous hair all the way around.

Archie is a very dark roan almost black. Hair like Samson, Gorgeous. No fading.

Chippy fades his bridle straps if I don’t bathe him religiously. Fades a saddle mark, too. Shabby mane and tail. Fades and sunburns all over.

[JB]

Horse who don’t fade ever, don’t have the nd1 gene.

Horses who have nd1 fade, unless you just don’t let them in the sun which is cruel.

Horses who are nd1/nd1 fade even more.

ALL you can do is reduce the fading caused by dietary issues, such as insufficient copper and zinc.

[RhythmNCruise]

@JB I have looked at VB Pro several times and thought exactly the same.

Is 5:1 really good for Iron: Copper? I agree that it’s just guessing due to not having hay tested. I figured the lower I could get that ratio the better? I thought I read somewhere that the ideal iron: zinc: copper ration was 4:3:1? And off I go trying to replicate it!

I’m going to have to go plug Vermont Blend Pro in and see how it works both on FeedXL and my budget sheet. It’s a little more expensive than KIS Trace, but I can drop the Probios and possibly the Mag Oxide. I’m not even sure he needs the extra Mag anymore. Started him on that when he was going through a rough patch of anxiety and such. In hindsight, that was probably ulcers…and those are all clear now.

I’ll report back with what VB Pro does for the diet/budget.

[candyappy]

Not crazy. Why feed what they really don’t need and saving a little money is even better.

[RhythmNCruise]

Vermont Blend PRO is looking like the ticket. It’ll actually save me a tiny bit more money, less scoops of stuff, and everything looks good on FeedXL.

I just opened a new bag of KIS Trace, so it’ll be another 80 days before I can make the switch.

And with just a few things to scoop into his feed, I’ll feel less like the “crazy supplement lady” at the barn. LOL!

[JB]

@RhythmNCruise

Is 5:1 really good for Iron: Copper?

Yes. Even the fanatical rabid forage-based “all iron is BADBAD” never feed commercial feeds crowd, only aims for about 4:1, despite no credible evidence it’s required.

The only thing I will say is that SOMEtimes, a very metabolic horse does do better closer to 4:1, but also, at some point, you just can’t add more cu/zn because it’s just…more. Unless you’re dealing with actual metabolic issues, i’m happy if it’s <= 10:1 or so

As long as there’s enough cu/zn, going for lower isn’t automatically better

The 4:1:4:4 ratio has mistakenly come about because the minimum requirements for horses is that ratio. The 1100lb horse needs 400:100:400:400 fe:cu:zn:mn. That is NOT the same as saying they need that ratio. Minimums != required ratios. The only research ratio that exists is cu:zn and that should be around 1:3-5, with 1:4 being ideal

@RhythmNCruise

I just opened a new bag of KIS Trace, so it’ll be another 80 days before I can make the switch.

that will give you plenty of time to ease into the VBP, since it’s going to be a different taste.

[sascha]

@RhythmNCruise

Please tell me I’m not alone. LOL.

Some of us <cough, splutter, me> may have a spread sheet to manage all the crap “we” feed to cover things like allergies and asthma along with general health, living in a Se-deficient area, and feeding a forage only diet. You are definitely not alone. Said spread sheet that I’ve heard tell of may also have columns to compare products from different suppliers on a cost per day basis.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yeah, I’m hoping the taste won’t bother him. Since it’s only 2g per day, and I’ll split it so it’s 1g per meal, I hope he won’t notice it among his 2.5 lbs. of timothy pellets, OHS, CocoSun, and Canola oil. His feed is soaked and everything goes in together and he’s not all that picky anyway as long as it’s not a strong flavor/scent that he’s not used to.

Thank you for clearing that up about the ratios and amounts. Milton is roughly 1200 lbs and FeedXL says he’ll be getting:

• 1798 mg of iron
• 385 mg of copper
• 1268 mg of zinc
• 647 mg of manganese

fe:cu:zn:mn ratio = 4.7:1:3.3:1.7

I’m kind of happy that his Omega 6 : Omega 3 ratio = 1.3 : 1 . And that’s with me saying that he has no access to pasture when he’s actually out 24/7 on grass. It’s not lush, but it’s enough for him and his pasture mate to nibble on all day. They’ve just recently gotten to the place that they’ll walk away from their hay to graze. They do eventually clean up most of the hay (they get some AM/PM), but they’re obviously finding more to eat. It was slim pickins for a while because we just didn’t have enough rain, so I decided to not even include pasture. Plus, I wanted to figure out what was needed in the winter when the pasture is gone.

[RhythmNCruise]

See? That makes sense to me. You are my kind of person. I don’t understand people who don’t keep spreadsheets on their horse’s supplements. What world are they living in? LOL

[reefy]

Not going to lie, I love FeedXL but it makes me a bit nutty. I really wanted to use the VB but I couldn’t ever get my horse to eat it. I gave up half way through the bag!

[Annie10]

Throw some black oil sunflower seeds in his grain. It really helps

[JB]

@Amberley

Try MegaCell. No added iron and it has the amino acids and probiotics included.

It’s a pretty mediocre v/m supplement. 0.85gm lysine 0.425gm methionine, substantially less than the current and new diet. The cu and zn aren’t terrible, but at only 75mg and 250mg respectively, that’s far less than the current diet and VB.

@Annie10

Throw some black oil sunflower seeds in his grain. It really helps

what would it help with? BOSS is very high on Omega 6 which isn’t needed, especially since there’s not a lot of grass.