Does anyone have a Pegasus butterfly saddle

[soloudinhere]

I disagree. Rotation of the scapula is a conformational feature and does not change if a horse is moving faster or “striding out.” It is limited by the horse’s conformation and length/angle of shoulder relative to the spine. If it is impinged by a saddle that can artificially limit it but it does not somehow become greater than its natural limitation by using a different saddle. A “really free moving” horse does not necessarily have more rotation than another nor does a “really free moving horse” have some sore of guarantee that they will crash into the tree points in any saddle that has a fixed tree. Thinking this shows a limited (at best) understanding of the biomechanics of fit, motion, and saddles.

if your horses were unwilling to move out in the (generally poorly fitting, older) saddles you’ve listed, that doesn’t mean they gained some range of motion because you walk them really fast.

[EEWinterFresh]

I’m going to be an outlier here it seems… I have the Claudia dressage saddle and really like it. I’ve used it for my shark-finned OTTB, some big shouldered WBs, and now I use it with my WBxdraft cross who’s nearly 17.2hh and wide as a bus. My trainer also uses it with her lusitanos. I’ve never had a horse get a sore back after using the saddle. In fact, one of my OTTBs has kissing spine, and he picks his back up and goes more comfortably in this saddle than any other.
While you can change out the thigh blocks to offer more or less “restricting,” I find that the saddle does not “lock you in” like some other dressage saddles I’ve ridden in. Coming from the H/J world, I actually prefer this feel with a little more mobility in the seat. I do have to adjust the shims on the mattes pad when I change horses, but that’s about it!

I would suggest finding someone who has the saddle to try first since it is a pretty significant financial commitment (that is a negative!)

[Jackie_Cochran]

One of the ladies that I ride with is probably getting a new horse.

For the first time in my life I am not agonizing over which of my saddles would hurt the horse the least.

I will probably have to change the shims in my pad, but that is a minor irritation, not a possible major disaster.

I am so glad that I bought my Pegasus saddle, especially since I do not have the money to buy a custom saddle for each horse I ride (I do not own these horses), or the money to pay to get them refitted twice a year.

Yes, this saddle is the most expensive saddle I have yet to buy, but the savings of not having to buy different saddles to fit each horse, the savings of not having to pay a saddle fitter to come out twice a year to “tweak” the fit, and the savings of not having to buy a new custom made saddle (or the hassle of finding a properly fitting non-custom saddle) to properly fit a more muscular back makes it a cheaper saddle over the years.

None of the horses I’ve ridden in it have come up with sore backs, even before I figured out how to keep the saddle centered properly on their backs. Considering that sometimes the saddle shifted a few inches to the side I consider that a major reason to keep riding in this saddle. Since I scrub the horses’ backs pretty vigorously before saddling and after un-saddling, I think the horses would “tell” me if their backs were sore.

[Weasel]

I’ve been following this thread and I’m really glad it’s ‘alive’ again. The Butterfly saddles are quite something. I think there is still a lot of work going into them - which I also think is why you can’t really find much info on them. I was a sceptic. I just wanted County. I had contacted County and I was prepared to import and pay the price for a saddle that I didn’t know would fit or not, but because I had had 3 County’s before, my mind said: 'It will fit!". Unfortunately, it took another saddle brand to wake me up to the fact that saddles manufactured 20 years ago are not the same today - despite that they have the same name and the same function. My choice of saddles where I am is very limited so we make do with what we have available. (for those of us who have been riding for a while, if you had a saddle that fitted each and every horse 30 years ago, chances are, you still have it somewhere in the tack room ready for the next ‘difficult’ back to fit until the horse changes shape (again!) - mine was the county Competitor that was stolen a few years back)

As I say, I was SUPER sceptical about these saddles until curiosity and desperation got the better of me one day - I reached a dead end with what was available and had no other choice but to go the Butterfly route. I managed to rope a friend of mine in on this little ‘saddle fitting journey’ as she was on the hunt (again) for another saddle (every time I saw this friend, she was hunting for ANOTHER saddle).

Together we tried about 7 or 8 of these Butterfly saddles on our horses. We tried whatever we could get our hands on - there were PLENTY available due to saddles ‘not fitting’ any longer. One evening we had 4 saddles all in a row. Each one of them was different. All of them were Dressage Saddles. 2 were Butterfly Uta Graf’s and 2 were Butterfly Claudia’s. All were 18". Only difference was: the date of manufacture. The older Uta Graf seemed have more angled panels making the channel seem narrower. The Claudia has pretty much remained the same.

The new ones were too stiff for my opinionated horse and they perched on his back - I wasn’t going to spend 45 minutes trying to get the hinges in a brand new saddle to start becoming flexible. The older Uta Graf didn’t have a wide enough channel for him, so it pinched. The older Claudia, however, seemed to do the trick - with a thin numnah and a wintec backpad. It took a few rides for me to realise that the girth doesn’t have to be too tight - the saddle doesn’t move! The 2nd girth point secures the saddle - especially the back (it helps when you have the slit in the sweat flap - the newer models come out with 2 slits - the older models don’t have these slits) The1st girth point is attached to the hinges and doing it up too tight closes them causing it to clamp down and pinch a whithered horse - I believe the pins in the hinges of the older saddles can be changed to stainless steel pins that the new saddles have, which will hopefully stop the hinges becoming too ‘floppy’. I also learnt that I needed to place the saddle a bit further back than normal - it’s a visual thing because the saddle misses a pommel. As for my opinionated horse, he’s finally moving forward and rounding.

All in all… I’m very happy and haven’t regretted making the purchase - even though it’s an older model! Happy horse, Happy rider!

.

[soloudinhere]

The number of first time posters in this thread coming here just to extoll the virtues of a bizarre new saddle brand is suspect, at best. Are you guys just constantly googling the brand or is someone telling you to come post? That three new people would randomly all stumble on a current thread is unlikely at best.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I am not a brand new poster.

In my search for a saddle or saddles that I could comfortably fit to many horses, of various ages, various types of conformation, in various degrees of muscular development, I went through the Wintec 250, the Wintec Wide, and an EZ-Fit treeless saddle.

I was prepared to settle with using the Corrector Pad (Len Brown) which most definitely made a positive difference in how the horses moved under my ancient Stubben and Crosby saddles, and the Wintecs. With the Wintecs, even when I used the gullet plate that “fit”, using my Corrector Pad helped the horses move out better, but nothing, nothing, nothing has compared to the freedom of stride that I get with the Pegasus saddle. The nearest thing I’ve ridden that gives equal shoulder freedom was the OLD English hunt seat saddles, pre knee rolls, with the deepest part of the seat way back, I got wonderful walks on two horses using that saddle, but it hit the dust decades ago, and it did not work very well on the other horses I used it on.

Initially I was REALLY turned off because the Pegasus Butterfly saddle looks so very, very weird. But when I finally had enough money to buy myself a GOOD saddle I looked again, thought of the 4-5 horses I ride regularly, and I ordered one. Since I figured out how to stabilize it on the horses’ backs I CANNOT bring myself to use another saddle for riding. If I could afford a Tad Coffin saddle with their new Smart Ride Rx tree I might change my mind, but I doubt I will ever in my life have enough extra money to afford a new Tad Coffin saddle.

One horse I ride is very croup high, swayed backed, with a VERY short “saddle place” and with a low set neck. He just tended to “shuffle” around under my other saddles. Now with the Pegasus Butterfly saddle this horse is confidently striding out, lightening up on his forehand, developing impulse at the trot and otherwise improving way beyond what I initially thought I could train him to do. To fit this horse to a regular treed saddle I would probably have to spend at least $6.000 USD, pay for a representative to measure this horse for a saddle, wait for months for the saddle to arrive, and then have to pay the fitter/representative to come out periodically as the horse’s muscles grew bigger. I am on Social Security, there is absolutely no way that I could afford this for all the lesson horses I ride. The Pegasus Butterfly saddle is not cheap (I spent under $3,500 for saddle, pads, stirrup leathers), but I do not have to get a separate custom made saddle for each horse I ride to have the horse comfortable while I ride it.

I DO NOT get any money from the manufacturer of this saddle, or from the saddlery that I bought it from. My positive reviews are truly heartfelt, based on over 47 years of riding experience, and for the last 15 years as a severely handicapped rider who tends to irritate the horses I ride (bad balance, in-coordination.) As far as I am concerned the Pegasus Butterfly saddle is the answer to my prayers. YMMV.

Both of my riding teachers LIKE how much better their horses move under this saddle, so it is not just my imagination.

[soloudinhere]

Where did anyone say you did get money from the manufacturer? I specifically said “three new posters” not “all posters.” There are many posters all with one or two posts contributing to this thread, which is awfully coincidental, non?

However if the only saddles you’ve considered are 2 wintecs, some “ancient” saddles, and an EZ Fit, it makes sense that you would not have found something that fit properly. Wintecs, for example, are widely known to fit flat backed horses and you describe one of yours as “swaybacked.”

For the same reasons the treeless saddles have never caught on, and the adjustable saddles don’t fit everything, I don’t see that this one improves on the design. Just because it has a hinge in front doesn’t mean a thing about it fitting multiple horses. The fact that your horses “move with impulse” (whatever that means) just means that the previous motley collection of inexpensive saddles didn’t fit, not that this one magically did or does - different is not necessarily BETTER. It’s just not possible for a saddle to fit anything and everything without any need for adjustment.

I won’t even address the notion of “severely handicapped who tends to irritate the horse” there comes a point where riding is unfair to the animal and a saddle doesn’t fix that, either. I’m not saying you have reached that point, I have no idea, but it is brought up in every one of your posts all the reasons why you should not ride but continue to do so. A saddle isn’t a miracle fix for any of these things, and I think an unstructured saddle like this combined with an unbalanced rider is a recipe for back injury.

Further, the “scientific data” on the Pegasus site consists of an informal test done by the University of Zurich using one particular saddle on three horses, two of which also had additional padding used, and one of which was acknowledged to be lame. The only conclusion of the test was that “this saddle could be used on these three horses.” I don’t respect manufacturers who try to present something as scientific when it is decidedly not.

[Weasel]

Gosh! I’m sorry if I’ve upset you… I suppose theres a first time for everything -this happened to be my first post after searching for an unbiased opinion of the saddle. No one has asked me to post anything here… I just thought I’d share my own personal experience of the saddle. The visibility of these forums is not restricted to members only.

As for the saddle, I don’t believe that it will fit every horse but that said, it will fit alot of horses - if you manage to find the right one ie: if you are looking at purchasing 2nd hand.

When I got my new horse 7 months ago the saddle I was using on him (an old JC Sapphir) was my go-to until he started filling out and changing shape (there is nothing wrong with my JC, its just that it was fine for him at the time) - there was no way I was going to make a purchase of a saddle and then, once he changed shape, have to make another purchase (some of these saddles cost an arm and a leg and I already have a Duett, a JC, a Wintec and a Henri de Rivel). The crux of the matter was that I needed a new saddle because none of the saddles fitted (Duett was too wide, the Henri was too narrow, the JC was starting to pinch and the Wintec bridged).
The saddles I tried (new and 2nd hand were the following: Harry Dabs, Prestige (there were a few of these), Albion, Frank Baines, Equipe, Wintec/Bates, Kent & Masters, JC, Santa Cruz, Henry de Rivel, Ideal and Monarch to name a few - they either fitted him but weren’t right for me, or vice versa.

I will admit, I didn’t like the saddle at first - I couldn’t understand the concept - its all good and well that a saddles gullet changes, but what happens behind the saddle when the horse fills out - they don’t just fill out around the shoulders. What about the channel width?? The Equipe has wonderful channel space - it has foam panels, (which became the least of my worries since technology has changed so much), BUT… it was a 17" saddle - 18" would be a special order and would that 1inch give me enough leg room to be comfortable? The only way I could know was by riding in one, which I couldn’t because there wasn’t anything available. Spending approximately US $4000 (if I convert it) is alot of money and you need to be 150% sure. I needed a wider channel with flatter panels and I wanted an 18"…I didnt’ want a Butterfly but, it surprised me. I didn’t like the Butterfly but, my horse is happy in it and so am I.

[EEWinterFresh]

@soloudinhere

The number of first time posters in this thread coming here just to extoll the virtues of a bizarre new saddle brand is suspect, at best. Are you guys just constantly googling the brand or is someone telling you to come post? That three new people would randomly all stumble on a current thread is unlikely at best.

Not sure if I’m considered one of the “brand new posters” or not… I don’t post frequently, but I have posted before. As to how I came across the thread… I recently started working night shifts (yay) and to fill time gaps and ward off sleepiness, I go through and scour the COTH forums. Particularly the dressage board, hunter/jumper board, and horse care board. When I saw the title of this thread, I was like “hey that’s me, I have one!” and thus, I am here.

Is the saddle going to fit absolutely every horse? No. Will it fit more horses than a custom medium/narrow tree? I’m going to go with yes. It may need some adjustment, as the saddle flexes side to side but doesn’t adjust for front-back imbalances, but shimming with a mattes pad if needed is still cheaper/easier than having to reflock or purchase a different saddle for different horses or as your horse’s body changes. Maybe my tune will change in the future, but for now it’s my best option.

[Loyalarabs]

I know I’m a new poster, but I have to start somewhere. I own 4 horses. Saddlebred, 2 pure Arabs, and a quarter/arab cross. I’ve owned a Devoucoux, an M. Toulouse with genesis system, a wintec Pro with a changeable gullet system, an older Stubben, and a treeless Barefoot Lexington model. Right now my short back, wide, and very fussy Arab mare isn’t happy, although she does “OK” in the Barefoot saddle. When I initially read about the butterfly saddles, I couldn’t find much, good or bad, about them. I decided to ask here. People with real experiences. I’m not getting “paid” to start a thread about them. I’m just not made out of money and find a $5000 investment a LOT of money, esp. if they aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. I live where reflocking, or getting a saddle “tweaked” a couple times a year is very difficult. Rural Northern Midwest middle of nowhere… you get the picture. I’ve also read about people buying “custom” saddles and then they still don’t fit. I’m just trying to ask everyone’s opinion about a not very popular saddle brand. Thank you to all of you who have answered. I’m open to all opinions as long as they’re constructive.

[Jackie_Cochran]

The 32 year old Arab mare I ride (croup high, slightly swayed back from age) likes the Pegasus Butterfly saddle much, much better than she ever liked the other saddles I used even though I used a Corrector pad with them to help with the problem of her well sloped shoulder reaching pretty far back when she moves. This mare was “OK” with my EZ-Fit treeless saddle, but she moves much better under the Pegasus Butterfly saddle. This mare is super picky, and she will cuss me out in horse whenever she does not like something whether it is my riding, the saddle, the bridle, the bit, and the grooming tools.

The WIDE backed Arab/Welsh mare I ride also likes the Pegasus Butterfly saddle better than all the other “solutions” that I tried, including the Wintec Wide I bought for her. She likes it much better than my EZ-Fit treeless saddle that I could adjust in several ways to fit her. This mare is the mare that I ended up buying saddles (Wintec Wide, EZ-Fit treeless and finally the Pegasus Butterfly saddle) for in a desperate attempt to fit her adequately.

The 32 year old mare’s spine is sort of prominent, the Arab-Welsh mare’s spine is a lot less prominent. Even so, with the Contender II BOT/ThinLine pad with the ThinLine shims, I can fit both mares AND the extremely croup high QH gelding with a really, really short flat area to place the saddle, and right now all I have to change between the horses is the girth because they each use a different length girth (the mohair string girths work best with the Pegasus Butterfly saddle, at least for me.)

I ride lesson horses now. The saddles for the lesson horses tend not to fit me well (most of the students are children.) It is so wonderful to finally have a saddle that fits me AND will adjust to each horse I ride. I no longer feel guilty about riding them in a saddle that basically does not fit them, and the horses seem to appreciate this saddle too, they like it much better than my other saddles and the saddles the lesson barn has for them (none of them custom made for the horse.)

This saddle is not wool flocked, the panels have memory foam inside of them, so there is no re-flocking to fit the horse.

I had been trying to find a saddle solution for me and the horses I ride for the past decade. The Pegasus Butterfly saddle is by no means “perfect”, but it does a darn good job of fitting several differently conformed horses. If I ever ride a TB with “knife” edge withers I might have to get creative with shimming the pad, but the way this saddle is built it will never interfere with the horses’ withers because the cut back extends so far back. I suspect that it is the only saddle that I would feel comfortable using on a ASB with a lot of shoulder action (the reason they put the Lane Fox saddles so far back from the withers.)

Yes, it is expensive, but as I wrote above I decided that it was much, much, much cheaper than getting a custom fit saddle for each horse I ride and having the saddle fitter out to re-flock it when needed.

[Loyalarabs]

Thank you! This is very helpful information. I’m thinking of splurging and saving for one. It’s just a lot of money for me. I do appreciate your input.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Look on Ebay. Right now there are 4 Pegasus Butterfly saddles for sale, all for under $3,000 USD though shipping is added on to the price when bought. Two are jumping saddles and 2 are dressage saddles.

The other saddles I was considering before I bought the Pegasus Butterfly saddle were the Tad Coffin Smart Ride saddles and the Bua saddle.

I just could not afford the Tad Coffin saddles (cry, cry, cry) and then I learned the seat of that saddle is hard. Since most of my time is sitting in the saddle that helped me overcome my disappointment about not being able to afford one.

The Bua saddle looks even weirder than the Pegasus Butterfly saddle. Its price is not too bad, less than $3,000 USD. If I ever save up enough money to buy another saddle I would probably buy the Bua saddle next. My main worry with the Bua saddle was how I would adapt to the seat moving up and down.

What made me pick the Pegasus Butterfly out of the three saddles was that the Pegasus Butterfly is made to fit on shorter backs. Because of the QH gelding I ride I NEEDED a saddle that would fit on horses without much place to put the saddle.

I had problems at first with the Pegasus Butterfly saddle, problems that came from my rather poor sense of balance and the previously undiscovered fact that one of my legs is 1/2" shorter. My solutions were 1) the Contender II BOT/ThinLine pad with the ThinLine shims, 2) mohair string girths, and 3) I started wearing silicon full seat breeches/tights.

I noticed with the Pegasus Butterfly saddle that as the horse’s shoulder moves back my seat gets shifted to the other side of the saddle. If I had normal balance it would not have been a major problem for me, but for a while I had to depend on my riding teachers to point out that I was gradually shifting to the left and the saddle was shifting off to the side also (would you believe that none of the horses took advantage of this? They just plodded on with some “comments” of “why don’t you learn to ride.”) When I bought my silicon full-seat breeches that particular problem became minor since my seat stayed centered even when the horses’ shoulders were pushing me to one side or the other.

When you get one feel free to PM me to ask questions if you have any problems adjusting to it. I get the feeling that I am not the only person to be challenged with learning how to ride in this saddle. Ron Friedson, who sold me the saddle, helped me a lot with suggestions though I came up with these solutions myself. The pad that came with the saddle (the Pegasus pad), which has 4 pockets for shims on each side, did not work at all for me since the horses I ride are old and have sagging backs, I needed a shimmable pad with a true center pocket for it to work on the croup high/swayed back QH gelding. Luckily I already had the Contender II pads, all I had to buy was the ThinLine shims. On all three horses I just use the center shims, but all have somewhat sagging backs. On other horses I am sure I would have to shim differently, and I have kept the Pegasus pads that came with the saddle because I am sure that one day I will run into a horse on whose back the Pegasus pad would work better than my Contender II pad.

I love riding in this saddle. I can get my seat way forward since there is no pommel for me to run into. The nearest I’ve gotten to the feel of this saddle is riding bareback, but it is much more comfortable than riding bareback! The Claudia jumping saddle that I bought feels a lot like riding in the minimalist Crosby saddles I have. I just have a high thigh block in the front and it does not bother me at all, and I am a person that has ripped out knee rolls because my knees would run into them.

[jaybird660]

I know of a very challenging to fit horse that finally tried one and it has made all the difference. I had heard that the results can be short lived, so I have followed up on this horse and although I haven’t personally fit this saddle to this horse, the horse has continued to move well in it and has had great success in competition once the change was made. This same rider also used it on another of her horses with noticeable success as well.

[Loyalarabs]

Finding a saddle fitter by me is next to impossible. That’s why it’s good to hear this saddle may work. I’ve seen the ones listed on EBay. I had messaged those people, but they also won’t do a trial. Sale is final kind of thing. I’ve never had to shim a saddle for fit, but I’m sure I could learn:). Thank you for the wonderful advice.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Anything for a fellow rider of Arabian mares!

[Jackie_Cochran]

There is another little challenge with this saddle I just remembered.

Usually the girth needs to be tightened after the rider mounts, and with a newer Pegasus Butterfly saddle I often found it necessary to tighten the girth yet another hole.

The ladies I ride with do this for me since my balance is so bad.

This would possibly be a problem for a rider who does not have help on the ground in a dressage version of this saddle with a short girth. If you ride alone, or with no-one around strong enough to tighten the girth, this could be a problem since the saddle does not work that well with a loose girth. It is the tightness of the girth that molds the hinges and plates to the horse’s forehand, and as the girth loosens the more the saddle can move around on the back of the horse.

Using a mohair string girth I can have the girth looser than I can with a Lettia Cool Max girth. So if your horse does not particularly like tight girths consider changing your girth to one that does not slip much.

This can be even more a problem with a NEW Pegasus Butterfly saddle, before the hinges get loosened up. As the hinges loosen up, the saddle settles down on the horse’s back, and the girth gets looser. Be prepared to tighten your girth! Always check before mounting to see if you can tighten another hole. If the saddle starts feeling like it is moving around under you, tighten the girth. Some rides at first, with the new saddle, I had to tighten up the girth two holes on each side during my 30 minute ride. When you pick a girth go with one that is slightly too short instead of one that is slightly too long so you do not run out of holes to tighten the girth while you ride.

[Loyalarabs]

thank you. I have a mohair string girth for a dressage saddle, so I could use that. I started researching the Tad Coffin Smart ride saddles also, and while they are also a bit spendy, I can find used for fairly reasonable. Those also get very good reviews. And many of those the owners will allow a test ride. Thank you everyone for your input. It has been educational and I have decided I’m not going to buy something I can’t test ride with a money back guarantee if it doesn’t work. Most reputable saddle makers are more than willing to demo their saddles…I’m going to try that avenue first.

[Jackie_Cochran]

With the used Tad Coffin saddles make SURE they are Smart Ride trees, because I’ve seen several (namely the cheaper ones) on Ebay that did not have these innovative trees, saddles with the Tad Coffin brand as well as the saddles he made for Crosby, which are much older.

Also realize that a person wanting to fit several horses of differently shaped backs need to get the various thicknesses of the Tad Coffin pads, so that is a possible added expense.

If I ever get the money for a new Tad Coffin saddle it would be one with his newer Smart Ride RX tree for which he has interesting claims on his site. Of course I doubt I will ever have that much extra money to spend on a saddle no matter how wonderful or innovative.

I have read, on various strings on this site, that the seats of the Tad Coffin saddles are hard, so definitely try one out before buying it!

If you order a new Pegasus Butterfly saddle I think that you can test ride it, but of course the used dealers do not have to if they do not want to.

I hope you have very good luck with your saddle search and that you end up with the perfect saddle for you and your horses.

[Loyalarabs]

Thank you Jackie. Saddle shopping is always an adventure!!