Does anyone want to look at my horse's feet again?

[sportyspicepony]

@JB

I don’t know how long since the last trim, but the bars are laid over, which might be fine if it’s been 5/6 weeks, but it’s not fine if 1-3 weeks or so.

These pics are from three days after the last trim

The x rays are from 10/26/20 in the PPE and only of the front feet, so I’m not sure how helpful they will be - i was planning to keep her in front pads for the rest of the summer and then get another set of images done this fall to re-assess… maybe I need to bump that up to be sooner, ugh.

Re: the bullnosed hind feet, I kind of feel like it’s gotten worse over time but attached some past pics of them below. Theres a lil black line in one of them that I did accidentally on my phone so pls ignore that lol.

And here’s her x-ray lateral views, I have more views too but for the sake of brevity i’ll just post these for now:

[sportyspicepony]

@BoyleHeightsKid

I’m also curious how long this farrier has been working on the horse.

He’s been working on her since November 2020 which is when I bought her.

I think I’ve read just about every page of Pete Ramey’s website but possibly not the distal descent article so I’ll check that out, thank you!!

It sucks and is so hard because 1) No matter how much reading I do I still don’t feel confident that I can visually tell the details of a hoof, like I can tell that my horse’s hooves are imbalanced but if there wasn’t anything physically going on with her i’m not sure that I would’ve really realized… and 2) I’m scared that whatever new farrier I find will somehow be worse

[lenapesadie]

@sportyspicepony

I think I’ve read just about every page of Pete Ramey’s website but possibly not the distal descent article so I’ll check that out, thank you!!

It’s a lot of information and can be overwhelming (was/is for me). So don’t feel bad or like it’s just you.

I fall in the “enough to be dangerous” category of hoof knowledge lol. Basically enough to say that doesn’t look right, firing this guy.

The most excellent news is that your horse can and will grow new, healthy hooves with the right farrier. That can greatly improve your horse’s soundness! Maybe even to the point where shoes aren’t needed which might be a cost savings!

Finding a new farrier can be scary. It’s up to you to be brave and find the right person to meet your horse’s needs. You got this!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Pick up his newer book or the Under the Horse DVD’s they are priceless… I started trimming my own almost 3 years ago now and haven’t looked back. I’m so glad I did.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

What is the diet? I see evidence there may also be something going on there as far as the hoof health goes…

re the bullnosing… I have corrected this issue in one of my geldings by maximizing breakover, floating the quarters and bringing the heels back. Boots with pads, hill work and over poles also helps them to plant the hind foot and engaged the heels. I also will put bell boots on the hind feet to get them to lift the foot higher and land better.

[candyappy]

@sportyspicepony

What’s so great about this situation is that when I do a quick search on Facebook groups in my area to see who people have recommended, like half the recommendations are for the farrier that I’m already using

It may be that your current farrier does a good job on those horses. I have had several experiences over the years, where a farrier I tried was unable to do my horses right but seemed to have no issues with others and they were sound and happy. It happens.

[Abbie.S]

What @candyappy said, but keep in mind that “well recommended” does not equal “quality”. It happens everywhere in the equine world.

The barn my gelding is at has some of the best, most well-known and highly recommended farriers in the area servicing the horses there. Every single one of those poor things has upright, contracted heels, severe bull-nosing in the hinds (like, for real, I was shocked the first time I saw it) and pretty much all of them are in pads.

The paradigm of hoof care, trimming and shoeing being taught in farrier schools today hasn’t evolved much and there are a WHOLE lotta farriers who do what they do without actually knowing why they are doing it. They do it because that’s what was taught. They don’t know how to positively effect the growth, shape and function of the horse’s foot in a way that improves movement and soundness, and unfortunately many riders don’t know how to ride their horses in a way that improves the way and manner with which the horse’s foot makes contact with the ground (thus working to change the shape and health).

It’s hard, for sure. It’s why I started trimming my own. I read and watched videos and was lucky to have a good friend who is an excellent farrier help me get more confident along the way.

[sportyspicepony]

@BoyleHeightsKid

What is the diet? I see evidence there may also be something going on there as far as the hoof health goes…

She is on Purina Ultium Competition, it’s the only grain my barn offers but it’s a very dense, high calorie grain for a chonky girl so she doesn’t really get very much - I’m actually not sure the exact amount right now, the BO will just adjust amounts based on her opinion of the horses’ weight which isn’t my favorite thing but I have to just live with it for now. Will be checking on that tomorrow tho!

I’ve messed with her supplements and done the whole FeedXL analysis and I’ve gotten her to a fairly okay spot with it, for supplements she gets Omega Horseshine, Mega-Cell, Equishure (started her on this back when I thought she had ulcers and I’m just keeping her on it until I run out) and electrolytes. She lives outside 24/7 and is on a summer pasture rotation where they have access to really nice good grass right now. I’ve thought about adding a copper/zinc supplement but according to FeedXL she should be covered on that…

@BoyleHeightsKid

I also will put bell boots on the hind feet to get them to lift the foot higher and land better.

Someone else suggested putting bell boots on her hind feet for riding too actually… I guess it can’t hurt to try!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@sportyspicepony

Someone else suggested putting bell boots on her hind feet for riding too actually… I guess it can’t hurt to try!

They don’t even need to be weighted… just regular bells will get them to lift higher and plant the foot to engage the heel better.

I will look at megacell… it’s possible that will cover your copper/zinc needs.
If we know your general area it’s possible someone here might be able to find you a good farrier.

[MsM]

I went through a number of “name” farriers with my previous horse. He had some issues and the farriers seemed unable to work with the vet to address them. Finally found a good one after asking the vet for names of farriers he had worked with on problem horses.

Current horse also developed a problem and needed particular shoeing. Fortunately, I knew a “name” farrier from when the farrier was a youngster and my vet has worked well with him. I just spent some $$$ to have vet and farrier present to do some rads to make sure the shoeing/trimming was just what the horse needed. They consulted, made a few small adjustments and we are good to go!

[sportyspicepony]

Charleston, SC! and she is getting two scoops a day of that, I think they are 1 oz scoops.

[sportyspicepony]

@MsM

Finally found a good one after asking the vet for names of farriers he had worked with on problem horses.

I asked my vet for a farrier reco but they just sent like a generic list of basically every farrier in the area, including the one I already use however if I don’t find someone soon that will def be my next step to get the vet and farrier out for an appointment together, because I’ve been planning to get more rads done anyway.

[J-Lu]

I’m not a farrier.

But the balance seems wrong on the RF.What is happening with the medial wall? That doesn’t look normal. What does your farrier say about it? The view from the bulb looks like an uneven shoe job compared to the structure of the foot. But I’m not a farrier. I don’t understand the massive bevel but I recognize that the farrier is setting the shoe far back so maybe that is why. There is a lot of heel but if your horse in in pads there may be a reason for this and it might be your horse’s conformation.

Rt. Hind - he bevelled that too. Is he trying to shorten the breakover? What does he say about this? It seems like your horse flares but some horse flare.

LF: A bunch of heel but it looks like your horse’s conformation is very different between the front and hind feet. I think again the shoe is not aligned to the alignment of the horse’s foot and isn’t helping your horse stand properly. The hole balance of the foot “swings” to the outside. Is the large bevel there to set the shoe back so far?

LH:The balance is creating a flare to the outside ant this doesn’t look aligned with your horse’s structure. Again, why the bevel?

You can ask your farrier to explain EVERYTHING they are doing. I always ask questions. I would honestly also consider another farrier.

My BO and good friend’s QH was nQR for a long time. I posted pictures here and people thought the toes were too long. The farrier was growing out his Halter/WP restricted hooves because more upright hooves made the nails drive further into the super thin wall. Radiographs were taken and my vet was involved. The front feet grew 2 shoe sizes. He MAY end up on a 4 week schedule for a while, he’s on a 5 week now but flares at 5 weeks. The farrier also recommended hind shoes to balance the horse.

Four or five cycles later, the horse is sound and moving much better.

I’d say his farrier is a good farrier but a bit more casual about it. My farrier is very active in the field and takes things very seriously. His old farrier happily let the owner switch to my farrier because he wasn’t able to keep the horse 100% sound and wanted the best for the horse. Even when he talked about radiographs with my vet. He still does their easier horses and absolutely no bad blood. That said, the old farrier is the nicest guy in the world…

Good luck!

[J-Lu]

In trying to find a farrier in your area, call around!!! Call training barns in your area and ask who they use and why. Call casual barns in your area and ask who they use and why. You likely have a Charleston Horse FB group and join it and ask around. Do you have a local dressage society? Ask them. Do you have a local eventing society? Ask them. Those horses have to be sound for sure. Similarly, do you have a Western Ranch riding or local Western Ranch horse trainer? Ask them. Those horses work cattle, do a bunch of different things and have to be sound. Omit the Western Show scene. Sure, you’ll get a million replies but the good farriers in your area will tend to rise to the top across disciplines. Listen CAREFUULY to what they say about farriers because they’ll never tell you who to avoid…but they’ll kind of tell you who to avoid!

[sportyspicepony]

Thanks for all this info, I checked out your other thread and it was also v informative!

Soo question for everyone on the farrier/vet interface situation… my vet suggested the need for some corrective shoeing due to her being slightly off on the inside fronts on a circle during her recent lameness exam and after looking at her x-rays, but didn’t really give any suggestions for specific corrections that needed to be done to her feet, like a lot of what I’m reading on here, and instead basically said that I just needed to try different things (i.e. try wedges and pads) to see what helps.

Who would you expect to be the authority on what specific interventions need to be made on the feet based on x-rays and lameness evals?

I’m a little bit frustrated that there appears to be so much wrong with her feet, but the vet didn’t point any of it out and just said to put her back in front pads. Clearly the front pads aren’t enough to fix what’s going on, would you expect your vet to spot an unbalanced trim job and ill-fitting shoe and raise the red flag about your farrier or nah?

When the vet and the farrier are working together on a horse, is the farrier basically just executing the vet’s directions? Or is it more like, the hoof needs to look like x y and z and you use your expertise to figure out how to turn it into that over time?

[J-Lu]

I fully understand. This comes from local vets and farriers to high-level vets and farriers. I used a vet whose horse in now an olympic contender and he disagreed with the way the farrier was shoeing my horse but said “if you tell the farrier I’ll deny it”. Such BS.

My current vet is a sport horse vet and a sport horse rider. That doesn’t stop her from working on QHs and she’s knowledgeable enough abou QH breeding to make foot recommendations.

Your radiographs are from one angle and admittedly, they look good. Would have loved to seen radiographs from the front but they aren’t often taken.

I’m not discounting that your farrier has a plan for those feet, I’m encouraging direct communication between you and the farrier to address all of the problems in the feet. He may have a longer term plan that any of us know.

Typically, the vet and farrier discuss the plan for the feet. Sometimes, vets are less able to discuss or farriers are less willing to discuss for a bunch of reasons. YOU, as an advocate for your horse can make it clear that you are seeking resolution (if they depart on approaches) for your horse and they’ll have to find resolution or tell you why one/each of them can’t. Remember, you are the paying customer, you are PAYING for their expertise. They have to come together and guide you. If one member often refuses, inquire and consider outsting one or the other.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

Per 2 oz of the Mega Cell you’re getting 75mg of copper and 250mg zinc and only 1 mg biotin. You need to at least double up on that to get the levels of copper and zinc you need. For the same cost (or cheaper) you can switch to a supplement like California Trace and get more bang for your buck. They also make this supplement in pellet form if your pony doesn’t like a powder.

California Trace Powder | California Trace

California Trace Pellets | California Trace

[MsM]

The communication between the vet and farrier is the most difficult part of the deal IMO. I have changed farriers and vets over the issues.

First I would look at the vet and other vet options. Do you have the chance to use a vet more experienced/interested in lameness? Most vets dont basically say “have the farrier try different stuff until something works”! Some of my issues started, however, when the vet wanted the toes shorter and the hoof at a different angle and the farrier said he couldnt do that. Hard to figure the true situation. Eventually I moved on from both of them! Found a vet that was not only well-regarded, but without a huge ego and who would talk through issues. Got the farrier by asking who he worked well with.

With current horse I had a good vet and we both knew the farrier for years. Still, it was worth the hassle and money to have them both there at the same time to xray, trim, xray, retrim, until we were all satisfied.

[lenapesadie]

Vet and farrier combos can be delicate.

IME most vets aren’t going to disparage a farrier or his work. I believe it’s professional courtesy. At most I’ve had a vet quietly make positive remarks or gently postulate that a shorter shoeing / trim cycle might prevent / cure an issue. I’ve not been in a position yet where a vet has recommended a particular shoe set up.

My current farrier prefers one of my vets over the other. Both vets are in same practice. While I like both vets, I have a longer standing relationship (I’m not about to disregard 20 years of excellent service) with the one that farrier doesn’t prefer. Thankfully farrier isn’t too pushy (about vets) and also readily accepted my reasoning for most often using the vet I have a longer relationship with. This vet also is my preferred go to for my charity/budget cases. The slightly less preferred vet is my go to when I want to throw the kitchen sink at an issue.

Between the horse owner, the barn owner, the vet and the farrier the relationship can approach soap opera levels of complexity lol. Boyfriends are less trouble

[sportyspicepony]

@lenapesadie

Between the horse owner, the barn owner, the vet and the farrier the relationship can approach soap opera levels of complexity lol. Boyfriends are less trouble

LITERALLY though, I am not new to horses but I am new to horse ownership, and navigating all the politics of all the different relationships has been literally the hardest part for me… sometimes I miss the days of just blindly doing whatever my trainer told me to do