[Dog] Breed-Specific Legislation: Yes? No? Discuss

[OverandOnward]

Also re DNA testing, of course this is a forever discussion. It is true that ‘breeds’ are a human construct, and no ‘breed’ has 100% DNA that has no crossover with any other breed. All breeds branch off from other, older breeds, and there is common DNA found across the breeds.

But as it has evolved to today, the testing by Embark & Wisdom Panel measures the degree of match against many thousands of individuals documented as representing each of many, many breeds, in their respective, independent databases. Both databases are now worldwide and can often segment breeds by geographic region, since the DNA pool overseas may have differences in the same breed in the U.S. and in other countries.

One of the reasons I enjoy the DoggyDNA subreddit is that these DNA sourcing, classification and accuracy issues are discussed by people who have expertise, even some who have worked in the industry and can share their personal experience. How Wisdom Panel frequently lumps Rat Terrier in with Chihuahua, while Embark can separate them.

Along with lengthy explanations of the genes and modifiers behind color and body type. And extra considerations such as dwarfism, which crops up noticeably from time to time.

So definitely there are some random elements, but the identification is getting better as the database pool of accurately identified breeds, by region, expands. And mathematical and scientific methods of identifying DNA to the database pool improves.

Embark in particular made it a mission even before they started public testing to travel as broadly as possible for their database. Some of their breeds have tens of thousands of individuals identified by location to test against.

But it is a fair point that along with guessing being crazy inaccurate at identifying a dog’s breed mix, even testing shows us that breed identification in mixes is not the way to try to control dog behavior.

[OverandOnward]

Also something that increasingly matters in DNA testing, Embark (only) has traveled extensively to research and make a database database to identify “village dogs” by region of the world. This is a concept that is many Americans find hard to wrap our minds around. In this country village dogs don’t often turn up because we’ve been immersed in an ocean of specific breeds for so long.

Especially in other parts of the world, there are dogs that have never had a ‘breed’ in their ancestry. So-called “village dogs” or “landrace dogs” are basically descended in an unbroken line from the dogs that just hang around humans, sometimes as pets and sometimes as scavengers, outside of a human-controlled breeding program. Large parts of the world have many dogs hanging around as ‘strays’, never having had an ancestor that was a specific breed.

Why is it important to be able to identify village dogs from various parts of the world? And how is a ‘southeast asian village dog’ turning up in American suburbia? In some cases, Americans bring them returning from a time living abroad.

But it seems that most of village dogs of foreign origin, that are now in the U.S., come from international dog rescues that are sending them here by the planeload. Hopefully they are spayed/neutered. But who knows.

Wisdom Panel does not identify village dogs. Instead, the result tends to show a long crazy list of breeds of low percentage (under 5%), randomly scattered throughout the world. This result is a reflection of just that randomness of dog DNA, and not of any true connection to dogs bred by humans as a breed. The experts call it ‘statistical noise’. The dogs with such a DNA result from WP are probably village dogs, with none of those ‘breeds’ actually in their ancestry.

Embark’s dedicated research and database of actual village dogs is able to assign the designation of ‘village dog’ by region of the world, such as ‘southeast asian village dog’ or ‘north african village dog’.

So that’s another interesting wrinkle in the question about how a dog is bred and what could be influencing its behavior and suitability for a new owner.

[Live_Wire]

@fledermaus

If I could wish anything about dogs, it would be that people stopped buying breeds maladapted for the role they have to play.

THIS. Over and over again.

We have four shepherds - we understand that they require a certain standard in training, exercise, etc. and we have committed to that. It’s something we have to work at daily, there are no days off. We do not own a working line. One of my biggest pet peeves are breeders who sell their working lines to inappropriate homes.

[MunchingonHay]

Antidotal:

When I was a late teen/ early 20 something, I was the asst manager of a large 200+ dog boarding facility in PA.

I worked there for 3.5 yrs. In all that time. I was only ever gone after by small dogs and most of them were Dachshunds and Yorkies, a few Pekingese and nearly every mini/toy poodle that came through the door.

The kennel also bred Porto Waterdogs, Akita and Shibas. Never had any problems with those dogs, nor any of the other boarders. Be it a mix, hound, pittie, rottie, etc.

Then for 3 yrs after that I groomed dogs in Delaware. And again it was little dogs that you always had to be careful with. Cockers and Mini/toy Poodles in that case as well as nearly ever.single. Shitztu.

For 10 yrs I owned a dog treat company that I baked and sold treats at farmers markets. Everyweekend.

The same thing larger dogs, never a issue. But I would see smaller, pocket sized dogs get a way with murder, bad manners and all around not nice dogs. There are exceptions to the rule of course.

I feel that it is not the breed, its the owner and knowing what they are getting into and how to nurture the dog to be the best citizen it can be. I had a Belg. Mal owner that quit her job to work with her dog for a year. That is dedication. I saw the dog a year later and he was amazing.

And do not get me started on people getting mini Aussie as apartment dogs. They are all nuts. (as well as most doodles.).

[fledermaus]

Heh. The two times I was bitten (if you don’t count trying to break up a dog fight when I was seven) one was a mini poodle who came out of nowhere when I was just walking down a street on the sidewalk, bit me in the calf, and ran away. The other was a chihuahua. Nasty little things!

[endlessclimb]

As a former dog groomer/bather - the only two dogs I had to turn away were a Chow and a Rottie.

Chow let me get through the bath no problem, a short blow dry, and then I put him in a kennel with a kennel dryer so I could start on another dog, planning to return to him in ~15 minutes. He would not let me, or any other groomer, touch him. He was DONE. The owner had to come in the back and get him out of the kennel.

The rottie was brought in when we didn’t have time for him to get started that very second, so he got put in a kennel to wait a few. ~10 minutes later, he would not let anyone, owner included, touch that kennel without going ballistic at the door. He got removed with a control pole by the head groomer and another helper, and I honestly don’t know what happened to him at that point because I was busy with another dog and didn’t see the conclusion.

I know of more than one pit bull that was properly raised from puppy hood that turned aggressive at ~2 years old.

Regardless of if small dogs are the biggest buttheads on the planet (which I don’t agree with necessarily, but lots of people have crummy experiences with them), part of what must be acknowledged is the amount of damage the aggression might do. A bite from a toy poodle is going to have a different conclusion than the same bite from a larger and more powerful dog.

ETA as a groomer my worst bite was 100% my fault. A senior labrador type, I was using a soft rubber curry thing to get some hair off before the bath, and I was distracted talking to someone while I was doing it. I must have been on a sensitive spot, that dog gave me plenty of warning and I just wasn’t paying attention. One grab of my hand, it did draw blood, I cleaned it up and finished the groom no problem. I should have been watching his body language that what I was doing was uncomfortable to him.

[Live_Wire]

We also have a chinese crested and that little thing is impossible. I am most cautious her at all times.