Dog Fight. Suggestions?

One of my home aide clients and her husband have two dogs, a Boston Terrier and a medium Poodle (not sure of the technical term, but it’s definitely not a standard Poodle and is roughly the size of the Boston). Both purebred.

The Boston is 13-14 and has been there since puppyhood. She is definitely getting older. Hearing and vision not as good as they used to be, and she’s on some kind of medication (heart, I think). She has to take running starts to jump up on the couch and such. I am more a cat person than a dog person, but this one is pretty neat as far as smaller dogs go, I think. Rarely barks. She has a whole vocabulary of Tasmanian devil-like sounds, grunts and grumbles, which they say she has always done. Definitely expresses herself but steadier than the Poodle.

Poodle is 7-8ish and has been there since puppyhood. They were actually looking for another Boston but having trouble finding a puppy, and someone gave them the poodle for a gift, probably figuring that one smallish black(ish) dog was similar to another. They didn’t want to refuse the well-intentioned gift. Poodle IMHO probably isn’t the best bred. Neurotic hyperbarker. Very shrill. Goes into spastic barks at passing vehicles, passing leaves, passing ghosts, etc. Still has to bark 5 minutes at me, and she’s known me for months. Never struck me as aggressive barking or a threat when she’s dancing around my feet yapping away, but definitely nervous.

There is no doubt that the Boston is their favorite. These people have about 100 ceramic Boston terriers in their living room (and they are a lot of fun to dust, let me tell you). They have an oil painting of their first Boston, and they still have eyes welling up when they talk about that one. But both dogs are well cared for. Both are fixed. There being two people, there is basically always a lap for each available when they are there, and I have seen both dogs in both laps. Both sleep with them at night.

Both get exercise; the people have about a 3-acre yard with invisible fence and with lots of gardening, landscaping, etc. The husband is very often out doing something around the yard, and the dogs go out all the time. The Poodle bounces around the whole yard and barks at leaves and such. The Boston is the absolute shadow of the husband when she’s out with him and can be found three feet away wherever he is in the yard.

Lately, per client’s stories over the last several weeks and per what I’ve seen myself, the Poodle has started showing aggression toward the Boston. Apparently she never had before. It started with treats. They each get a chew stick treat every morning. The Poodle started (new practice) not eating her chew stick but just leaving it there in the floor. She wouldn’t hover over it, but if the Boston turned that way to sniff or check out the abandoned treat, the Poodle would growl and bark and push her back. Almost seemed like taunting the other dog with it. The Poodle would sometimes take a few hours to actually eat her treat, but she made sure the other dog both knew it was there and didn’t come close. Her definition of not coming close has gradually expanded. It’s gotten to the point where the Poodle objects if the Boston leaves the tiled kitchen while the treat is in the carpeted living room.

Poodle has also started growling when the Boston walks too close to whatever lap Poodle is in. Again, the definition of too close has expanded slowly. Client and husband scold the Poodle and sometimes put her out for this. I heard the growling myself two shifts ago, and the Poodle definitely sounded serious.

This morning, the Boston was feeling good. She actually got to playing with a squeak toy. I don’t know if this was related to what happened later or not, but I’d never seen it happen before. People say the Boston plays with squeak toys on her especially good-feeling days and that the Poodle usually ignores toys. But while I was in the living room, the Boston was squeaking away, shaking the thing, and clearly having fun.

A little later, when the playing had been stopped for a while, the Poodle was in the husband’s lap. Boston was at the other end of the living room, about 15 feet away - large living room. The Poodle suddenly, no growling, launched herself at the Boston clear across the room. Everybody yelled, and the Poodle stopped at the yelling, though she did bowl the Boston over and looked ready to go in for a bite. She was looking at the client and husband, both yelling (both take a long time to get up with their lift recliners - could not move fast). She then clearly thought about going after the Boston again. Husband called her, and she reluctantly went to him, stopping a few times to look back.

Appealing to those more knowledgeable about dogs, what is going on here? These dogs have lived peaceably together in the house for years (though the Poodle has always been neurotic). The only new factor seems to be that the Boston is failing physically, though she’s still enjoying life. Is the Poodle trying to push her out? Will this likely continue to escalate? And what can two people with impaired balance who cannot move quickly to intervene do to help this situation?

Two theories - one, something is seriously wrong with the Boston and the Poodle can sense or smell it, and it’s freaking her out. Or, the Poodle has never been able to be the dominant dog and now that the Boston is failing, she’s exerting herself as the pack leader.

Or…a combination of both. My 6 year old dog has had a couple of “incidents” with my elderly dog (almost 15) over the last year. Just growling/snarling but both were “resource guarding” - once over my dh, the other time over a dead rabbit the 6 year old killed in the yard. They have lived together for the younger one’s entire life without a single incident, and while he’s intact, he’s extremely passive (my spayed bitch and my 6 month old puppy can take a bone right out of his mouth and he’ll allow it).

But the obvious change is the age of my old dog - he’s elderly, deaf and partially blind, and pretty rickety. I also wonder if my 6 year old tries to communicate with body language and/or verbal (growling) but my old guy doesn’t hear or see it, and the younger one thinks he’s being challenged?

In our case, it hasn’t been difficult to manage because of the 6 year old’s temperament. I won’t allow him to dominate the old guy, and he knows it. And so he doesn’t - but he will remove himself from situations where they are too close to each other (e.g. if he’s on the bed and the old guy tries to get up, my 6 year old will get off the bed and go elsewhere.) I am very careful not to put them in a situation that might escalate - mainly for the old one’s safety, but I don’t want to put my younger dog in a position where he feels he has to take a stand, either.

In your client’s case - I think they should have a vet check for the Boston, but in my opinion, they should be prepared to intervene and/or keep them separated to keep the old one safer. Definitely watch resource guarding with food and people. And make sure the poodle is getting enough attention so she doesn’t feel like she has to fight for it, especially if things are dicey between them already.

I would think the poodle is pushing to take the spot as top dog. Happening to my friend right now and their 1 year old golden is going after the 11 year old Jack Russell( who is top dog). Actually attacked him and shook him violently because both wanted out the door at the same time.

They were told to eliminate the things that trigger the confrontations if possible. Not always easy.

[QUOTE=S1969;8484124]

But the obvious change is the age of my old dog - he’s elderly, deaf and partially blind, and pretty rickety. I also wonder if my 6 year old tries to communicate with body language and/or verbal (growling) but my old guy doesn’t hear or see it, and the younger one thinks he’s being challenged"
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This^^^^ ( sorry…deleted the quote part accidentally, so it didn’t quote properly). Hearing and vison loss will make the older dog miss verbal/body language, so other dog is perceived as rude. Owners need to really supervise and prevent situations from developing by separating dogs when giving treats/toys, etc.

I’d also get a blood workup done on poodle as he is at the age thyroid problems can appear. Low thyroid can cause aggression. It doesn’t even have to be really low…just borderline. Make sure they do a T4 test.

[QUOTE=candyappy;8484145]
I would think the poodle is pushing to take the spot as top dog. Happening to my friend right now and their 1 year old golden is going after the 11 year old Jack Russell( who is top dog). Actually attacked him and shook him violently because both wanted out the door at the same time.

They were told to eliminate the things that trigger the confrontations if possible. Not always easy.[/QUOTE]

My friend’s parents had this exact scenario - same breeds, etc Jack was a tad younger – multiple trips to the vet, and the Golden eventually killed the JRT.

Never leave treats out on the floor (or any other high value items) and do not keep the dominant dog on the lap when there is a single dog on the lap. And yes, this will escalate and it revolves chiefly around the ability of the poodle to now dominate the frail dog. I would suggest that the people get a well respected trainer to come to the house and watch the various interactions so they can get the whole picture, but I would not leave the Poodle alone with the Boston at this point.

[QUOTE=S1969;8484124]
Two theories - one, something is seriously wrong with the Boston and the Poodle can sense or smell it, and it’s freaking her out. Or, the Poodle has never been able to be the dominant dog and now that the Boston is failing, she’s exerting herself as the pack leader.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

My cat dominated my dog her whole life. When my cat was dying of kidney failure she sniffed my dogs food…dog for the first time ever let out a low growl, she knew the cat was ill and frail and was no longer in charge. I’ve seen it many times in packs of dogs that when the alpha gets sick/old another dog will challenge them for the top spot. It’s instinctual.

They should not feed treats without separating the dogs. If they don’t curb this behavior they are going to have a full out dog fight, and judging from what is explained above, it sounds like it might be soon.

When the poodle acts in a territorial manner - poodle should be put in time out away from group. Crate is ideal, but if not then a mud room, bathroom etc. Doesn’t have to be for a long time, 5 minutes. The point is that the poodle begin to associate that that behavior results in isolation. There shouldn’t be yelling or physical reprimand- this can and usually just makes the situation more energy charged, which is not what it needs! In fact no emotion around it at all…simply: Poodle gets snarky=poodle gets isolated.

I have a friend with 3 corgis and two border collies, there have been some wicked fights in her house! Above is what she was told to do.

I always back my older dogs over the younger dogs and they know this. Right now my older dog has been blind for 2 years due to SARDS. My next dog still defers to him. Now the older dog is fed first and anytime I see any sort of pushing around by my 5 yr old dog I intervene. #2 always defers. He knows he gets to do things the blind one doesn’t .

This couple remind me of my sister who just “loves” her dogs and wants live stuffed animals to love and cuddle. She has two “fluffies” who are perfect for this. This fall someone at work approached her about fostering a stray puppy who had a badly swollen foot. She of course accepted and fell in love with this scrawy sick puppy. Said puppy is now 40+ lbs and only 6 months old and looks to be some sort of shepherd mix. After the holidays I talked to her about finding a more suitable home for this high energy large dog. Luckily she agreed (took some convincing from me and her daughter) and we are hopeful that we have found someone to take her in a couple of weeks. The thing that pushed this was the puppy would grab the fluffy dogs by their tails and drag them around. Nothing they could do would stop her. She was just playing but my sister couldn’t discipline her well enough to get her attention. So she was keeping them separate and shifting dogs back and forth. It just wasn’t a good situation for any of the dogs or my sister.

The behavior of the dogs is triggered more by the owners than the dogs. How to teach them to be leaders of their dogs instead of just the dog’s lovers would be difficult. I know I’ve tried for years with my sister.

Oh, hell no. I had a similar situation with a new adult dog who after 10 days settling into the house, sized up my elderly dog and went for her like Satan. If it was up to me, he’d have been sent packing, possibly airmail with my foot up his ass. I’ve seen too many animals manage to live nicely and gently with each other - including my old girl who was 110% safe and kind with an ancient, blind, senile dog, back in the day - to just chalk it up to “Well, they’re animals.” Some animals are dicks. Interestingly, my little monster is also a nervous, high-stress small dog. You know what they say - the dominant dogs and the subordinate dogs are the relaxed ones, it’s the ones who are always jockeying for that middle position who are a bundle of foul-tempered nerves. My advice for the couple would be to invest in an exercise pen, one of the tall wire ones which can be made into a circle, a square, or just flat across doorways. Give the jerk a secure space to move freely, and leave the older dog the rest of the house as a safe space. It’s not easy, but it’s the only way to ensure the jerk doesn’t get to the old dog. The small dogs can move like lightning when they choose, and it’s harder to grab them than it is to get hold of, say, a Lab.

[QUOTE=vacation1;8487230]
I had a similar situation with a new adult dog who after 10 days settling into the house

Some animals are dicks. Interestingly, my little monster is also a nervous, high-stress small dog. [/QUOTE]

Yes, but these are dogs that have lived together for many years without incident. It’s not a “new dog” thing…it’s a change in behavior.

I still believe the most likely issue is a health factor with the older of the two dogs (a serious illness), but it’s possible that there could be an issue with the younger one instead.

I’m not really sure how a seriously ill and/or elderly wild dog, coyote or wolf would be treated by their pack. I wonder if they would be cared for, or attacked.

Obviously in a domestic situation, we can intervene on behalf of the weaker one - and we should - but it doesn’t mean that the “healthy” dog would normally do so otherwise.

I think it depends.

I’ve had hounds who are “medics” , who would care for and nurture those who are young, old, compromised, etc…and also those who would look for weakness, seize upon it, and attack the weak.

Kind of like the range of behavior we see in humans…

[QUOTE=S1969;8487248]
Yes, but these are dogs that have lived together for many years without incident. It’s not a “new dog” thing…it’s a change in behavior. I still believe the most likely issue is a health factor with the older of the two dogs (a serious illness), but it’s possible that there could be an issue with the younger one instead.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I realize the jerk’s behavior has probably been triggered by the other dog’s increasing age/vulnerability. But it’s not A=B; most dogs don’t respond to an elderly housemate’s frailty by trying to take them out. It happens, and it’s not rare, but it’s also not normal and inevitable, which is why I call the ones who do it jerks. It’s like biting a person - sure, maybe there was a reason. But the dog still chose to execute an extreme behavior, skipping the whole range of mild behaviors that 99% of dogs choose instead.

This really strikes me as a staged coup for dominance–mainly because these are two females, and this is exactly why I try to avoid that scenario if I have the option to because bitches (even spayed) can be, well, bitches and have some of the worst fights. Not to say two females can’t coexist together, but it would never be my first choice.

I would not leave them alone unsupervised. I would also start treating each either in separate rooms or better yet in their crates because that is “their” space. Most dogs respect crate space as safe space.

Is there any chance the house can be divided during the day between them so each has their own space without hindering the humans? That would be the next thing I’d do.

Lastly, you say the Boston Terrier is clearly the favorite. The owners really need to watch the level of favoritism. Dogs do pick up on that. There’s a reason I’ve made the litter mate of my dog watch in a crate as I lavish praise on my dog for doing something right–she gets extremely jealous and all of a sudden, she has motivation to work for me and work well.

If it were me, I wouldn’t allow anyone in the bed, anyone in laps, only treats for doing something right like going crate. I get the Boston isn’t really the problem, but the poodle needs to know where she stands which is well below the owners. Also, any time there is a spat, BOTH dogs need to be crated/put in time out separately. Again there is no favoritism. Everyone loses when someone acts bad. Poodles are smart dogs. She should figure it out fairly quickly if the owners are consistent and sharp to act…

We had that issue when our VERY dominant ACD was getting old and confused. The, low dog/submissive, BC mix started hassling her and trying to make and enforce “rules” on the ACD. BC mix had long done whatever the ACD said, including waiting for treats/attention/whatever until ACD had had her fill. When BC mix sensed weakness, she started getting very bossy, and sometimes aggressive with the older dog. She did launch herself across the room a few times when I was petting the ACD.

We separated them at meal times, stopped treating anyone, took up all the toys and got a second dog bed (they used to share one big one). ACD had always preferred my husband, while BC mix preferred me. Hard as it was, I stopped giving attention to ACD and DH stopped paying attention to “my” dog, when both dogs were in the room. If we wanted to pet or snuggle the “other” dog, we did it in secret ;). Things were much better once there was no contention for resources.

By the way, I will see this client again Tuesday and will report suggestions to her. Thanks for all the advice.