Dog obedience folk - training for CDX?

So I’m back on the trial bandwagon, well and truly hooked :smiley:

I’m hoping to find some local help in training now, since I’ve mostly reached the end of my knowledge and definitely the end of my practical experience.

But in the meantime I have a question or two for you guys that have BTDT:

Anyone read/used Clicker Training for Obedience by Morgan Spector? I still use clicker work with Luna now and again, I did a lot of it at the beginning of training. My main concern here is for the dumbbell work - she is an incredibly soft dog and I think the old style ear pinch will shut her down in a heartbeat. Also, she’s a Labrador out of hunting and working lines, she’s definitely got the retrieve in her, and the will to please. I just need to learn how to shape that.

Any hints as to do’s and do-not’s in training, and (though it’s a ways away) showing?

Is there a reason to do or not do the optional Grad Novice and/or Pre-Open? Again, I know this is way down the road, but I’m a planner :slight_smile:

Thanks in advance, I’d love to hear your stories!

I’m still debating whether to go straight to Pre-Open or do Grad Novice first. I really don’t want to do regular Open as I despise the group stays…especially out of sight.

Anyway…I just taught my dog to hold and retrieve the dumbbell. This was the first time I’ve ever attempted to do this and I wanted to do it right from the start. And I did NOT want any force methods. My dog is NOT soft, he’s a Doberman, but I wanted him to be HAPPY to hold & retrieve :slight_smile: Not to mention Dobes are far too smart to put up with ear pinches and such!

I used the following method (sorry it’s long but I can’t attach things) and it workED WONDERFULLY!!!

+Shaped retrieve based on Michele Pouliot’s CLICKER EXPO lecture.
Lets begin by going over a few basic principles.

  1. You will be shaping this behavior. That means that you will not direct the training but will encourage your dog to make choices in the direction you want him to go as he progresses toward the ultimate goal of achieving the behavior you have in mind.
  2. You will mark desired behavior with a click or other suitable, consistent auditory signal and will always follow each mark with a reward.
  3. You will have a clear idea in mind of the criterion to be marked at each step before you begin a training session and will have all necessary equipment at hand and will be ready to observe and respond to your dog’s behavior at the first opportunity each time every time. (Mark and reward = c/t.)
  4. Your click ends the behavior!
    Them’ s the rules. Now lets get on with it.

You need to start with a properly fitting dumbbell.
It should be comfortable for your dog to hold in his mouth – with a bite not so narrow that it pinches his lips nor so wide that it moves around from side to side bumping against his cheeks. The bells should be big enough so that there is room for him to get his lower jaw under the dumbbell to pick it up comfortably from the floor but the bells should not obstruct his vision when he carries it. Many working and retrieving breeds prefer a thicker bite, herding breeds often like a thinner one, some dogs prefer a lighter dumbbell, some like more weight. Plastic is less breakable and wood invites chewing, but some dogs really object to plastic in their mouths. The most experienced advice on dumbbell choice I know of comes from Max 200 and I generally recommend that students go there if they do not already have a good dumbbell.

Step I. Have a supply of really tasty treats easily accessible. Sit on a chair with your dog in front of you. Step on his lead if necessary. Hold the dumbbell between your hands and present it to the front of your dog’s face. Mark any reaction from a look to a touch to a lick to a grab, take the dumbbell away and treat. Repeat several times until you are sure that you will get a response every time the dumbbell appears in reasonable proximity to the front of the dog’s face (including slightly above, below, to one or the other side or even far enough away so that he may take a step toward it). You should believe that your dog understands that he can make you c/t by responding to the presentation of the dumbbell in his vicinity.

Step II. Your next set of criteria will require your dog to lick the dumbbell, push it with his teeth, open his mouth over it and/or put his teeth around it. Any of these behaviors are to be directed to the bite of the dumbbell only. All of these behaviors are grouped together because the can often come in a rush together rather than in an orderly progression. What you are looking for is realization on the part of your dog that he can use his mouth to interact with the dumbbell and by so doing make you c/t.
To get this next step, you will have to stop c/t’ing the previously rewarded behavior. This may come as quite a shock to your dog if he is not already clicker savvy. It’s OK. Wait him out. His frustration will lead him to try something to make you click, which is just what you want. Be prepared. Take anything!
Just the slightest hint of a behavior in the right direction – a nose bump against the bite of the dumbbell, for instance – should get a c/t. Be sure that it is more than what he has done before and be sure that it is somehow in the direction you want him to go.
The trick is: don’t let him linger too long on these intermediate steps. Three or four times on something better than what he last offered but not quite where you want to be is great, but then you must withhold the c/t and look for the next, closer approximation. Maintaining the balance between rewarding each new step and then asking for the next, closer approximation is where your observation of and sensitivity to your own dog come into play! Be careful to work for short periods with lots of play breaks – this is really exhausting stuff.

Step III. The next step should follow very easily. Once your dog is getting his mouth around the bite of the dumbbell, he should begin to close his teeth on it. C/t the moment you feel his teeth firmly on the dumbbell. He will open his mouth to take the treat and you can take the dumbbell away as he does so. Make sure you are getting a firm, positive close on the dumbbell. You want your dog to be sure that he is right to grip it tightly in his mouth just behind his canine teeth and then to release it when you c/t. It should be a great game that you both find really fun.

Step IV. Now begin to build duration. (Remember, your hands are still on the dumbbell from the time your dog sees it until he relinquishes it to get his reward.) Instead of c/t’ing the moment you feel your dog bite the dumbbell firmly, hesitate 1 second before you mark the behavior. If you notice any sign that he is beginning to loosen his hold, do not click, just take the dumbbell and do one or two c/t’s as he bites down as you have been doing then try waiting a second again. Once you have the one second delay established, move on to two seconds, then three, four and five. Then start yo-yoing between different time segments from instant to ten seconds and random periods in between. Your dog should confidently hold the dumbbell until he hears the click for any time period.

Step V. During the hold, briefly remove your hands from the dumbbell and replace them before c/t’ing. Your hands should always be on the dumbbell when presenting it to the dog and while the dog takes and begins to hold it and should be on the dumbbell before the dog releases the dumbbell in response to your click. Between those two times you may take your hands off the dumbbell one or more times and for varying lengths of time. You should be able to tap the dumbbell with one or both hands. Work up to these variations slowly. Your dog’s firm grip on the dumbbell should not vary as your hands leave or return to the dumbbell. If your dog drops or loosens his grip on the dumbbell, do not react, certainly do not click or reward (!!), just take a step back and work more slowly forward in smaller increments until he understands and is comfortable with what you are doing.

Step VI. After the dog has taken the dumbbell, move your hands slightly away in front of the dog, encouraging him to push the dumbbell forward into your waiting hands. Intersperse this behavior with the other hands off behaviors you have been playing with and be sure that your dog waits for the click to release the dumbbell after your hands are firmly on it. Slowly increase the distance that he has to move forward to bring the dumbbell to your hands until he actually must take a step or two to reach your waiting hands.

Step VII. Gradually bring the dumbbell toward the floor until your dog is picking it up from the floor (your hands are still on the dumbbell during placement). As your dog grips the dumbbell your hands move gradually up and away from the dog so that he brings it to your hands, waiting for click to release. Do not rush to click! Remember to maintain varying duration holds after your dog brings the dumbbell to your hands.

Step VIII. A helper holds your dog while you place the dumbbell in front of him and step away from it a foot or so. Upon release, your dog will pick up the dumbbell and bring it to your waiting hands. Keep distances small and picture as similar as possible to what you have been practicing up to this point. As your dog gains confidence you can increase the distance. Always end with a steady hold before the c/t.
At this point a cue word can be introduced (“fetch”, “take it”, “bring”, whatever) as the dog is released to take the dumbbell.

Step IX. Holding the dog at your side, place the dumbbell a few feet in front of you. Release your dog and give the cue to retrieve the dumbbell. This is the first time that your dog has been asked to step away from you to get the dumbbell and then turn back to you to present it. Hold your hands ready and expect a good hold before c/t’ing. Gradually increase the distance you ask your dog to go to retrieve the dumbbell, also varying the direction and, eventually increasing the difficulty of the retrieve in any way you can. In case you haven’t noticed, you have a shaped retrieve!

Next Steps. Begin to introduce the “wait” cue before sending your dog to retrieve, look for good fronts and finishes following release of the dumbbell. Replace the click with a cue (“give”, “thank you”. etc.) to release the dumbbell. Introduce objects other than the dumbbell to retrieve, especially including gloves and scent articles. Also begin retrieves over jumps. Think of new challenges. Keep the details crisp and accurate. Always remember to keep retrieving fun and interesting.

The clicked retriever by Lana Mitchell is a great resource.

Lana Mitchell is good, I like Michele Pouliot and Denise Fenzi. All use a shaped retrieve. Personally, I prefer a back chained retrieve as you eliminate the possibility of things like tossing the dumbell or mouthing and releasing etc.

Competition retreiver people cannot allow chewing and they need a quick, clean pickup so I picked the brain of a friend who was a competitor and she had a lot of good ideas. One of them was to use your fingers before you start with any object. Use your fingers because your fingers are so sensitive you know when the dog has a soft, quiet hold. Once the dog can hold your fingers, you can add or substitute a dumbell.

probably the most important thing to do is proof, proof, and proof some more with your training. You never know what will happen at the actual trial, and if your dog has been proofed to anything and everything you can imagine might happen, you’re more likely to be successful. And your dog is more likely to be obedient in real life, and not just in the ring.

Reliability comes from extensive proofing and motivating the dog to FOCUS on you and WANT to perform, and that motivation and focus is best created by using positive reinforcement, not by correcting/punishment/pain. Look into the ways the schutzhund and ringsport people use to train obedience with the dogs in a state of high drive and high motivation at all times, usually achieved by using toy and food rewards and rarely if ever punishing the dog.

If you can find a “choose to heel” class, that is the best way to develop a bomb-proof dog that will stick like glue to your side, with or without leash, regardless of what is going on around you.

Thanks all!

vtdobes, that’s just the sort of thing I was looking for, thanks! That’s the general route I’d been planning on but the description is nicely detailed.

Thanks for the book recommendations too, wendy & threedog. I’ll look into those.

I started basic obedience and attention work with her (using a clicker) as soon as I got her, at 9 weeks. She’s very in tune with me and is an excellent house dog as well as show dog. I am going to do a proofing class (I hope, if the schedule fits mine) and do my own proofing by going to Petsmart, Tractor Supply, Lowe’s, horse shows etc. I could probably stand to revisit the choose to heel game too, especially in those settings (if I can). We won our Sat Novice class this past weekend and the judge paid me the compliment of saying “that was lovely heel work!” which was very nice to hear. On Sun we placed 2nd, and that finished her CD :slight_smile:

Anyway, thanks for the input, it all helps!

Will be watching this thread with interest. I’m positively shaping a dumbbell. Kinda stuck and there are no local resources but I just attended a Denise Fenzi seminar and she helped identity some problems with my technique and got me progressing.

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7391023]
Will be watching this thread with interest. I’m positively shaping a dumbbell. Kinda stuck and there are no local resources but I just attended a Denise Fenzi seminar and she helped identity some problems with my technique and got me progressing.[/QUOTE]

Isn’t Denise great? I attended her seminar recently too, very helpful. I’m + teaching the retrieve to my Irish Wolfhound who is not a natural retriever and does not play with me with objects, we are on Step 4 that vtdobes posted (thanks for posting that, it is very similar to what we did). It took us a long time before Tori would open her mouth, I had to resort to a tiny bit of peanut butter in the dumbbell, but we are up to working on duration of the “hold”. I did the finger in the mouth thing too, but found my finger did not reach all the way across her mouth, and I work standing as she is so tall.

OP, well done with Luna, and good luck and please keep us posted! I envy you your great heeling, that is a wonderful accomplishment.

I may take an online class from Denise Fenzi, if I can figure out how to upload my videos.

The second Training Levels book by Sue Ailsby also has a good retrieving protocol. I found I needed my praise to be excited for the “Take it” but calm for the hold, and I give a release “thank you” before the c/t.