Dog Park Rant...

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I find it interesting that there are (enclosed, actual "for dogs only) dog parks that allow people to keep their dogs leashed inside the parks (or that anyone would do this thinking they have more control of what happens to their dog because they’re attached to it amongst a group of 10-20 loose dogs…)

The only dog parks around here require you to remove your dog from its leash in the “staging area” before you enter the park. Dogs react very differently when restrained on a leash vs. free to react as they feel comfortable. I’m wondering if having a dog leashed in an otherwise many-loose-dog situation would be helpful at all…

[SkipChange]

Gosh I like the dog park. Maybe I haven’t been enough. I’ve been to 2 and at neither was I mobbed by dogs as I walked in. My somewhat shy puppy was treated respectfully by the other dogs and there owners almost always walked up and petted my puppy and made sure their dogs were polite. My pup has excellent recall so now we skip the fenced pen and just play off leash with a few other dogs in the wide-open unfenced area and walking trails.

There are 6 puppies on my block so my neighbors and I just let them play almost every day.

My puppy’s confidence around strange dogs grew a LOT after just a few trips to the dog park.

[LexInVA]

I like the dog park too but I make sure to keep track of the problem dogs, their owners, and serious incidents so I know what’s going on around me. My dog is definitely a better dog because I took him to the dog park so much when he was a wee puppy.

[witherbee]

[QUOTE=FrenchFrytheEqHorse;6321565]
I find it interesting that there are (enclosed, actual "for dogs only) dog parks that allow people to keep their dogs leashed inside the parks (or that anyone would do this thinking they have more control of what happens to their dog because they’re attached to it amongst a group of 10-20 loose dogs…)

The only dog parks around here require you to remove your dog from its leash in the “staging area” before you enter the park. Dogs react very differently when restrained on a leash vs. free to react as they feel comfortable. I’m wondering if having a dog leashed in an otherwise many-loose-dog situation would be helpful at all…[/QUOTE]

Our dog park also requires that all dogs are off leash in the holding area and then let into the dog park. My dogs have not been mobbed, even on busy Saturdays (which is when we usually go).

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;6317073]
Dog parks are the stupidest idea ever. I don’t understand why anyone would bring their dog to one.

Would anyone turn out 30 strange horses, including some stallions, out together and hope for the best? Absolutely not. So why is it ok to do for dogs?

:no:[/QUOTE]

Very true…and we had someone poisoning dogs here at a local dog park.

[analise]

[QUOTE=wendy;6317535]
If you go watch dog parks or dog day care social hour it doesn’t look like most of the dogs have any fun. They kind of wander around looking vaguely stressed, or stand near their owner. [/QUOTE]

Not long after we first came to my area…I found out there was a dog park nearby and was like, “hey, cool!” Mostly because it seemed nice to have a fenced in area where I could let my dog off-leash and maybe she could play with the other dogs, etc.

Well, the first couple times she kind of sniffed the other dogs and then just walked around sniffing everything and then she’d pick a spot to lie down or sit by me. She was never particularly interested in playing with the dogs or chasing a ball I brought (and she loves to play chase-the-ball at home). Then she started growling whenever other dogs would come over to sniff after she’d decided to lay down and wait till I took her home. At that point I got the hint, loud and clear. She’s not into dog parks, so we don’t go anymore.

[Appsolute]

I and my dog used to enjoy the dog park. He and a whippet buddy would have the best time sprinting around playing tag.

Until he got hurt, on two separate occasions, once by a neutered pit, and the second time by an intact pit. And no, my dog was not 'being rude" he was running and playing chase with his buddies, and on both occasions he was chased down by a pit and either slammed incredibly hard, or bitten.

I know, not the breeds fault, not the ball’s fault, the owners etc etc etc. Just happened to be more and more clue less owners (the type leading their pit by a chain that is wrapped around their hand many times) started coming to the park more frequently. I leaned to grab my dog and leave every time they arrived, but it got to the point that it wasn’t worth going at all.

I know it is a something that pit lovers will never change their minds on, but they are big POWERFUL dogs, that were historically bred for dog aggression. I do not let my small non aggressive dog near them anymore. Once bitten twice shy.

[Appsolute]

@chancellor2;6321561

I’ve been trying hard not to jump on the fact that this is a pit bull dog. But your statement above along with many other statements you have made on this board regarding pit bulls is just.plain.wrong. YES. SOME breeders of pit bulls DO breed for aggression. BUT there are A TON of breeders out there who breed for what the AKC standard is…a companion dog. The American Staffordshire terrier (a member of the pit bull group) is now and has been bred to be a companion for many many years.

That may be true, but come on’ not all pit bulls come from AKC show stock. I can tell you on the East Side of San Jose, where there is a large gang element breeding their dogs… they aren’t show stock, and I do not think they care about AKC standards. Is cutting off their ears and breeding a dog with a MASSIVE build part of the AKC standard?

I choose to avoid them. And I am sorry, but there is a large element out there that IS breeding agressive dogs. These are still the go to breed for dog fighting.

[Curb_Appeal]

The only dog park I will go to has staff on site during all open hours, requires proof of vaccination and license, and does not allow puppies under 6 months. It’s a wonderful place because they will not hesitate to boot the trouble makers, but are educated enough to recognize the difference between play and aggression. They are zero tolerance on aggression, no matter the size of the dog.

We have a new dog beach down the road from my house. After years of trying, dog owners finally got the county to give them a 1/4 stretch of sand on a 1 year trial basis. After only two months, I am already pretty sure it will not last past the trial period because people can’t seem to follow the rules and there has already been one dog mauled. One of the rules is that dogs must be on a leash no longer than 6’. USA Today ran an article that showed people using retractables, and many people don’t leash at all.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-15/beach-dog-park/54982432/1

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;6321561]
YES. SOME breeders of pit bulls DO breed for aggression. BUT there are A TON of breeders out there who breed for what the AKC standard is…a companion dog. The American Staffordshire terrier (a member of the pit bull group) is now and has been bred to be a companion for many many years.[/QUOTE]

Virtually all of the individuals of breeds and mixes collectively known as “pit bulls” are the result of people breeding with an eye to “fighting” ability, whether it’s a Michael Vick-alike with a pro kennel or a couple of kids with a pet. In 2011, the AmStaff was 72nd in popularity in the AKC’s registration list. That’s below the Cane Corso, the Shiba Inu and the Bloodhound. When’s the last time you saw a Bloodhound? When’s the last time you saw a pit bull? Responsible breeders aren’t the source for this group of dogs.

Apart from that, there is also a question of exactly how far even breeds which are largely being produced by pet and show breeders go from their origins. Very few beagles come from hunting lines, and very few collies come from herding lines. Yet beagles are notorious roamers because they are forever slipping away to trail something into the next state, and collies are irresistably drawn to chase moving objects.

[QUOTE=chancellor2;6321561] There are many many pit bull owners out there who won’t take their dogs to dog parks because of hysterical people who will automatically blame the dog simply because of its breed. And frankly, those of us who ARE responsible would rather avoid hysterical people altogether.[QUOTE]

Hysterical? If anyone is irrationally overwrought in the pit bull argument, it’s the pit bull owners. The worst that can happen to you and your pit bull, on a walk, is you get a hard look. The worst that can happen to the rest of us is that our dog gets mauled to death by an animal that was designed to do just that. But the pit bull people are the ones wailing continually about how threatened their breed is. Yes, it’s threatened - by legal limitations and the occasional euthanasia order for one that bites humans. That’s not exactly a pogrom. If your breed can’t exist relatively peacefully with relatively crappy owners then it needs to be limited.

[QUOTE=chancellor2;6321561] That said, I would feel quite confident bringing my pit bull into a group. She is quite good with other dogs so long as no one tries to boss her around. Even then, it goes as far as growling…and that is it.[QUOTE]

Why wouldn’t you be confident bringing your dog to a dog park? Your dog’s breed give you excellent odds of walking home with a happy, healthy dog. The rest of us deal with the worry that your dog will have a bad day and we’ll be going home with a bleeding or dead dog.

[Snowflake]

Vacation1 does make a good point. The biggest problem the pit bull faces are not government bans and vocal protesters but irresponsible breeders who bred for their own agenda and not in the interest of the breed.

I own a misunderstood breed and am often met with contempt from veterinarians and groomers who assume they’ll be nasty. But my dogs were from show stock and bred to be ambassadors for their breed. How many pit bulls can you say we’re produced with the intent of bettering the breed?

I’m not a pit hater. I think they’re beautiful, loyal dogs but I do feel that until people start breeding them to better the breed, breed them to standards of both physical and temperament characteristics, that the caution about the breed is warranted. I don’t blame the dogs. Just their breeders.

[chancellor2]

All I can say is WOW, Vacation1. Just wow. Yeah, ALL I have to worry about with my pit bull is a hard look. Yup. You are right.
You are obviously one of the hysterical people about whom I am speaking and you obviously have no clue about what responsible pit bull owners face. And responsible pit bull owners DO outnumber the irresponsible ones. But go ahead and believe what the media feeds you.

[Snowflake]

@chancellor2;6322872

And responsible pit bull owners DO outnumber the irresponsible ones.

Unfortunately, that statement seems to be a regional thing. I know in my area, that is not the case by far. I’ve worked in the veterinary industry and the responsible pit bull owners were heavily outweighed by the bad. And it has nothing to do with the media. It’s simply what it is in my neck of the woods.

Looking back on my time in the clinic I can count on one hand the number of really outstanding pitty owners. The rest… Well, they just made us walk out of the room shaking our heads. It takes a really passionate and dedicated owner (which is why I understand Chancellor2’s reaction) to really be able to do well with a powerful breed of dog like the Pit Bull. Unfortunately, many dog owners are more casual about their responsibilities when it comes to dogs.

The responsible pit bull owner has the tendency to do one thing - they spay/neuter their dogs. They’re not breeding, so in essence, the “good” side of the breed stops with them. Now, I’m not by any stretch of the imagination saying that responsible pit owners should start popping out puppies, but I think what needs to happen is that the work done by the responsible pit owners needs to outweigh what is being destroyed in the breed by the bad owners.

I do think that governments are stuck between a rock and a hard place with this one. How do you regulate one population (the bad owners) and foster the other (the good owners). So, it’s pretty much like having one bad egg - if everyone can’t behave, everyone loses the privelige. I don’t agree with it, but it’s not the government’s job to babysit people and hold their hands. It’s their job to look out for the well being of the majority. Yes, it ruins it for all of us but instead of attacking the government and media, go after the ones who are ruining it for the rest of you - the dog fighters, the bad breeders, etc.

My parents had a presa canario on their farm. We had him since he was 5 weeks old. He was part of a dog fighting ring’s breeding program and my parents thought that he was young enough that they could overcome his breeding. They couldn’t. 99% of the time he was a wonderful, goofy, happy big dog but there was that 1% of the time that he turned into 160 pounds of pure terror. He was severely territorial/dominant aggressive. He would turn on the other dogs in the house and one dog was hospitalized 3 times due to fights. And he was selective - he loved one cat, but hated another - enough that his intent was to kill. He also hated kids. One time, I had him with me in the farm truck and we got behind a school bus. Just the sight of kids getting off the bus put him in a frothy mouth frenzy. He tore at the doors and the dash, trying to get out. Because he knew how to open the doors at the farm house, there was a real worry that should some kids come to the door selling something, that he would let himself out and attack them.

We wound up putting him down because we just couldn’t live with that 1%. He had a home with experienced dog owners, he was neutered, he was loved and well cared for. We consulted pros about his behavior and all of them said there was nothing we could do. Veterinary behaviorists were involved and again, no improvement. My parents are the epitome of responsible dog owners and even they couldn’t combat this dogs genetic propensity to kill. We loved that dog and it was awful to put him down at the prime of his life but we couldn’t keep him from doing what he was bred to do. I’m not saying all Presas are bad, not a chance. But after that heartbreak, I would never own another.

That’s why I firmly believe that this fight between good dog/bad dog starts with the breeding. The responsible pet owner can’t fix it because they’re not breeding. It’s a complicated problem and both sides are essentially correct in their points of views. Sadly, for the dogs in this case, there is no easy solution to the problem.

[chancellor2]

I have to say that I strongly disagree. Pit bulls CAN and DO overcome their “breeding”. Michael Vick’s dogs were obviously bred and selected for their fighting ability. Several (at least 3) are now therapy dogs.
I will admit that changing a fighting dog’s behaviour is not for the average owner. But it CAN be done by someone with some intelligence.
It is doing many many pit bulls a disservice to say that unless you know their background, you can’t have a safe dog. Having worked in rescue for several years now and worked with hundreds of dogs, I can say that what you see before you when you see a pit bull, is more than likely what you are going to get.
They do not “hide” their bad behaviour and suddenly SNAP.
Really, they don’t.
Scarlett came to me as an unknown. No idea of her upbringing She was 3 or 4 when we got her. And, I will admit that in the first week, I wanted to return her (she was “just” a foster then). She chased my beloved Siamese cat out the window. But after a week, she learned that cats are not for chasing and she learned her place in the pack. She is now nearly the ambassador for her breed her “big sister” Sadie was before she died.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=chancellor2;6323027]
I have to say that I strongly disagree. Pit bulls CAN and DO overcome their “breeding”. Michael Vick’s dogs were obviously bred and selected for their fighting ability. [/QUOTE]

most of them failed at it as well, which is why he destroyed them. Of all the MV dogs rescued, only 2 were euthed for behavior.

[chancellor2]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6323049]
most of them failed at it as well, which is why he destroyed them. Of all the MV dogs rescued, only 2 were euthed for behavior.[/QUOTE]

I think I don’t understand what your point is. Yes, the dogs that failed at fighting were killed (and in a horrible manner).
So, maybe Michael Vick stinks as a breeder of fighting dogs.

What I know is that pit bulls have an incredible talent for forgiveness of what humans do to them.
No, not all pit bulls are good…but the same can be said of other dog breeds as well.

[AppendixQHLover]

:sigh:

I used to take my darling, dumb as a box of rocks boxer to the dog park. He loved to run with the greyhounds and came home tired. The last time we were there was a really aggressive husky that challenged him. He did snap back since he was challenged. I never went again because there were more aggresive dogs coming and I wasn’t going to risk my dog’s health.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I hate the dog park. I was SO excited when we got one too. Twice my dog escaped being mauled by intact males. One was a rottweiler and the other a GSD. FYI, I have a doberman. She got away because she runs like a greyhound.

I don’t blame the dogs, but I do blame the owners. The rottie guy thought it was cool how tough his dog was. Frankly he was a bit scary and had a posse of young guys with him and I chose to leave.

This is the same reason there are always going to be issues with pits, imo. It is the irresponsible owners who ruin it for everyone else. The fighting or tough breeds are a strong draw for a certain type of owner who also wants to be preceived as tough or wants to dog to scare away others. That is simply a fact. It straight up annoys me that there are towns around me that I’m not allowed to have my CGC, obedience trained dog outside without a muzzle on, if I’m even allowed to have her there at all, simply because she is subject to BSL (breed specific legislation) even though I’m not aware of any doberman bites in the last couple decades in our area.

However, there are also dogs who are more dog or people aggressive. My male doberman can be dog aggressive (no I don’t bring him to the dog park) if he is “mobbed” by the pack. Denying that some pit bulls are that way too is irresponsible. I’ve been in many dog classes (as a student and as a teacher) and all dogs are different, but certain breeds tend to require a more vigilant or better handler (typically any of the working breeds).

The problem isn’t the dogs, it is the irresponsible owners, but you can’t legislate stupid.

It really does suck.

[wendy]

People simply don’t use dog parks appropriately. They’re a place to allow a dog to run off-leash. That’s it. They were not really intended to be either a doggie socialization pen or a canine playground where mommies and daddies stood around chatting and paying minimal attention. You were supposed to come in with your dog and without your kids, your book or your iPod, let Fido loose and let him run around to get exercise. Then you were supposed to leave. But people don’t want to understand that. It’s so much handier to exercise your dog and have some quality time with the kiddos. Or take in a soccer match. Or chat with your dog park buds over coffee.

that was my impression when I first heard of the concept- it’s supposed to be a “fenced yard” for people who don’t have one. You go, you play ball or frisbee with your dog to exercise it, or work on your off-leash obedience or something, totally ignoring anyone else who is present, and leave. Or you arrange to meet your dog’s dog friend there for a two-dog-only run and play match, then you leave.
When used THAT way, they are an awesome idea.
I’ve visited four of the “mosh pit” parks in my area, and they are all primarily used instead for the dog owners to socialize with each other while they ignore their dogs, who mill around in confused, stressed mobs. Or the owner turns the dog loose, expecting it will “self- exercise” somehow while the owner plays with her phone.
Try taking your dog there and try to exercise it- you can’t. Your ball will be stolen, your game or training disrupted, and the owners of the other dogs won’t do anything to keep their dogs from being nuisances.
Luckily in my area we have a few REAL parks, with trails and woods, that also happen to allow dogs “who are under control” to be off-leash. So you can go to these parks and exercise or work your dog. Usually you don’t meet anyone else at all, and if you do, generally everyone realizes it’s not a place for doggie-free- for-all.
By the way- socialization doesn’t necessarily include “meeting and free-playing with many other dogs”. Most people would almost certainly prefer to own a dog who has been socialized to quietly and calmly ignore other dogs vs. one who plays well with many other dogs. Dogs who spend too much time meeting and greeting and free-playing with other dogs turn into nightmares- they are the ones that lunge on the leash trying to drag their owners up to meet every dog they see, or run eagerly up into the face of any dog they see, or can’t pay attention to their owner if another dog is present (bye-bye plans for agility, obedience trials, etc.). Dogs who learn “we don’t talk to strangers” instead of “we play with all strangers” are much nicer to own and be around.

[bort84]

Lots of different and good talking points on the thread.

Just wanted to jump into the pit convo first:

I love pits, I think they are usually WONDERFUL companion dogs, no matter what their breeding. So many of them come from absolutely horrific backgrounds and always maintain a lovely attitude or are successfully rehabilitated to have a great attitude.

@ Chancellor2: I can see why you felt some of the comments might have been a tad harsh, but I do think your glasses might be a bit rosy.

Firstly: In most areas I’ve lived, bad pit owners definitely outweigh the good ones (who I give all the credit in the world). To clarify, I’m using pit here to include all pit-esque types and crosses, though I realize there are also good breeders who are breeding for a specific type and purpose. If you took a nationwide look at pits and owners in general, I think you would find that stereotype does hold true. Unfortunately, pits are the current tough guy dog, so they are overbred and often owned by irresponsible types. In addition, many people get “over-horsed” with a pit type and don’t understand the responsibilities that come with ownership of that type of dog - this also makes for less than “good” owners, despite good intentions.

Let’s be honest, MOST dog owners (of all breeds) are not what I would consider “good” or “knowledgeable,” and MOST breeders are far too ignorant to be breeding - again, despite some of them having the best of intentions. I think those of us that frequent COTH and/or competition dog sports sometimes get spoiled by the level of knowledge around us.

Secondly: Pits do come from stock that was bred for dog aggression and fighting qualities, even if responsible breeders are no longer breeding for those traits specifically. That’s just the way it is. Many of them are not that way and/or can be trained to be wonderful around other dogs. However, just like most sighthounds love to chase quick things that come across their line of vision, scent hounds love to track a delicious smell, and terriers tend to be tough critters with a high prey drive, many pit types do have higher levels of dog aggression (they’re not the only breed, either).

In summary, because pit breeders and owners today are often of the irresponsible sort, it makes sense that ‘good’ pit owners often avoid dog parks (same with all breeds with a reputation). And, no matter how much you love pits, they do come from lines that were selected for a certain amount of dog aggression, so it’s good to keep that in mind. It’s always good to remember any breed’s lineage. For example, I always keep in mind my greyhound’s breeding to keep her safe - there are some things I wouldn’t think twice about allowing another breed to do that I wouldn’t let her do (that 1% chance is not a risk I’m willing to take).

***But yeah, to the original point of the thread, dog parks are something that can be great but it’s rare you get the perfect storm of variables = ) My girl doesn’t enjoy them at all and is relatively intolerant of rude dogs, so we do greyhound playdates instead (she’s a bit of a breed snob…)