Dog Seizure Advice

[GoForAGallop]

Just looking for some reassurance from the COTH dog community that I’m handling this correctly.

I have a six year old Cattle Dog mutt. I have had her since 10 weeks. She had her first seizure when she was two, and I whisked her to the ER and ran all sorts of tests, everything was fine. I swapped her to grain free, watched what she ate, and just in general followed the advice of my vets which was “Eh, it happens.”

She didn’t have another seizure until four, and then she had two that year. I took her into the ER for the first, they waved me away more or less after pulling blood. I called before the second, and they told me not to come in.

Her five year old year, she had two. I spoke to my vet about them, but they again weren’t concerned.

She had one this spring, of her six year old year. For some reason, it was a bad one. All her past ones, it’s been five minutes and then done…she might nap a bit for the rest of the day, but is normal. This one, she seemed to have a hard time recovering from. Very shaky, depressed, etc. I had to go to work that day, so she went to my regular vet for observation. I picked her up after work, and she was just not right, not her bright bubbly self, didn’t want to walk. I brought her to the ER vet, she stayed there overnight and through the next day. They ran a few different blood tests and kept her under observation, didn’t need to IV the anti-seizure meds although they had them on hand. I showed up after work, and she was fine.

And now, all of a sudden, she has had one on Oct 9, Oct 28, Nov 19. Two to three weeks apart. They are still just the five minute and done types, but I am sick to my stomach over the increasing frequency.

I have spoken to my vets about this on many occasions, and they have always told me that unless she is having more than one in a 24 hour period I shouldn’t be taking her to the ER (yes, I’m THAT owner, apparently!), and they don’t start recommending the regular anti seizure meds until it’s more than one a week, since the side effects are apparently rough on them sometimes.

Does this all jive with everyone else’s experiences? This is both my regular vet (who I’ve used for 15+ years) and the specialists at the emergency and specialty hospital telling me this.

I just feel really bad for her, it’s obviously not a comfortable experience. This video is not her, but this is the exact type of seizure she’s having: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfQivcd66DE

She’s very “present”, but is tense and shaking, drools uncontrollably, has to lay down because her back end gives out. Whoever is nearby stays and sits near her and pets/talks calmly to her. My main concern is that she’s actually having more than I know about; she’s not always under someone’s direct supervision, and since she doesn’t cry out or anything, it’s perfectly possible she has them in the other room while I’m watching TV or something, and I never know.

Phew, this got long, sorry! I am probably more stressed out than I should be, but I just put down my mare for neuro-type issues three weeks ago and am still very shaken up from that, so the last thing I need is this dog dying on me!

Here’s a photo of her gorgeous self, as a reward for making it to the bottom of this anxious momma thread! https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1923655_22106380214_6763_n.jpg?oh=f4ec3aa93ffea497a5904964c77bb0c3&oe=5517029B&gda=1427507483_78f0fab9eacd2d2d43ceffaa65451fc5

Edit: My vets think I am crazy, but the seizures mainly happen in the spring and the winter, when she is either blowing out or growing in her thick fluffy winter coat. I think it’s related somehow, but not sure it’s at all fixable.

[Miss_Anne_Thrope]

To add …

Yes, this sounds exactly like my little dog (Yorkie/Pom mix?). Sounds like you’re already doing this, but I keep a record of each and every one and make a note of how mild it is. For the past 3 years, my dog has averaged 6-7 per year, mostly very mild, but occasionally not so mild.

From my records, I can’t really detect a pattern. The first year, he seemed to have more in late summer (July and August), but that wasn’t really repeated the next year.

I panicked once when he had 2 in one day, but that hasn’t happened again, at least to the best of my knowledge, because as you’re already aware, he could have one that I don’t know about. Even though he sleeps in the bed with us, it’s entirely possible he could have one while I’m sleeping, recover from it, and I would never know.

My vet is also unconcerned.

And I can tell you these seizures are very different from the ones that another dog of mine had many years ago. Picture thrashing on the floor for what would feel like many minutes. When they started to occur more frequently (more than once a month maybe, if I recall), she was started on phenobarb, and her personality was never the same after that. Eventually, the seizures became more frequent and more violent, even on her meds until she was having multiple seizures in a day, and I had to have her euthanized. I’m only relating this because I hope you take comfort, as I do, from the realization that those were a very different kind of seizure from the ones it sounds like your dog is experiencing.

ETA: Oh yeah, forgot to say … your dog truly IS gorgeous. What a face!!

[Sabino]

My 12 year old Chesapeake used to have a couple a year up until I switched her to chicken free dog food. It’s been 5 years now and not a single seizure.

My vet and I were just trying to rule out food allergies being the cause and the foods I had tried all had chicken and peas. So, we took chicken out of her diet and voila! No more seizures (and she LOVES to eat now, was always a finicky eater before that.)

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=Miss Anne Thrope;7865969]
I’m only relating this because I hope you take comfort, as I do, from the realization that those were a very different kind of seizure from the ones it sounds like your dog is experiencing.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is the sole reason I am not demanding an RX from my vets. Her seizures are not violent, and while she’s clearly lying on the ground thinking “what the heck?!!”, with the exception of that one time she recovers quite well.

[QUOTE=Sabino;7865991]My 12 year old Chesapeake used to have a couple a year up until I switched her to chicken free dog food. It’s been 5 years now and not a single seizure.

My vet and I were just trying to rule out food allergies being the cause and the foods I had tried all had chicken and peas. So, we took chicken out of her diet and voila! No more seizures (and she LOVES to eat now, was always a finicky eater before that.)[/QUOTE]

Interesting. She is grain-free, but not chicken or peas free. She is a good eater, but not voracious choke-everything-down eater like most dogs are…although that fits in with the rest of her personality. Can I ask what food you’re feeding? I’m not opposed to giving a different food a go.

[rcloisonne]

When my aged Beagle had a seizure we rushed him to his regular vet who happened to be open. She was very concerned. A thorough exam showed nothing and routine blood work was normal.

However, we weren’t dismissed either. My vet told me to take a video should it happen again which I thought was a great idea. Fortunately, he never had another one.

Perhaps you should seek another opinion? And take a video of an episode with you to show the vet. As they say, a picture paints a 1000 words.

Good luck with your pup!

[Horsegal984]

The vets I’ve worked with all recommend starting treatment if seizures are happening once a month or more, or if the animal spends a fair quantity of time unsupervised since it’s hard to be sure how frequently seizures are really occurring.

While some sedation and groggyness can be noted during the beginning of anti-convulsant therapy it shouldn’t be a long lasting side effect. There are also a wide variety of options now for controlling seizures, we often start with Zonisimide since it seems to be better tolerated than phenobarbital for a lot of dogs.

[Pancakes]

What Horsegal said:

If it happens more than once a month (or more than once every other month) then it warrants anti-seizure medication. From the age of onset and general infrequency, I’d bet on idiopathic causes (aka epilepsy) but really, an evaluation by a neurologist or advanced imaging (CT or MRI) with CSF tap is the only way to know for sure. Not that it’s necessary entirely, of course.

If your vet won’t prescribe anti-seizure medication at this point, I’d be looking for another vet, or consulting a veterinary neurologist.

And, as Horsegal said, there are many options for seizure control now. Phenobarbital is tried and true, but it does make them very groggy for the first week or two, especially if they’re “loaded” initially. It is very predictable, though. There are lots of options. Find a vet who is well-versed with them.

[Bluey]

My little rat terrier started having odd spells, we took videos and our vet asked specialists on VIN to look at them.
They agreed it was seizures, put her on medication and they stopped completely.
At four years old, our vet decided to try to wean her off the medication and she is now almost 9 and has not had not one other, but we know they may start any time again.

Hers were minimal, she would stop in mid stride, some times with a leg stretched out and stand there goofy like for a minute or so and then snap out of it and be wobbly.

She was having two or three a day, then some days none and again several a day.
All tests came back negative, so it was diagnosed as idiopathic epilepsy.

The trouble with seizures, they may cause some brain damage, so you don’t really want them to happen too often and how often is too much depends on the seizures and the dog.

When anyone is having a seizure, it is best to stay close to be sure they don’t get in trouble, but don’t move or speak or touch it, because it is already trying to handle a brain storm and doesn’t need any more stimulation, but quiet.

Maybe you could video your dog and ask your vets ask specialists on VIN to look at those and see what they think, if you don’t have a specialist close?

I would keep being the squeaky wheel until you feel comfortable that all is under control.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;7866885]

And, as Horsegal said, there are many options for seizure control now. Phenobarbital is tried and true, but it does make them very groggy for the first week or two, especially if they’re “loaded” initially. It is very predictable, though. There are lots of options. Find a vet who is well-versed with them.[/QUOTE]

This everyone’s reservation with pheno. I will discuss other options, it’s not something I’ve personally had to deal with before.

[QUOTE=Bluey;7866961]
When anyone is having a seizure, it is best to stay close to be sure they don’t get in trouble, but don’t move or speak or touch it, because it is already trying to handle a brain storm and doesn’t need any more stimulation, but quiet.

Maybe you could video your dog and ask your vets ask specialists on VIN to look at those and see what they think, if you don’t have a specialist close?

I would keep being the squeaky wheel until you feel comfortable that all is under control.[/QUOTE]

She actually moves towards you to be held, like I said she is very present while it is happening, and does find comfort in the contact and soft voices. We do stay away from her jaws, obviously, just in case.

Both sets of vets have seen a video of her, the emergency room vets got to see a mild one. Again, everyone’s opinion was that since it was happening so infrequently, no meds was better than meds at that point in time. The neuro diagnostics are pretty limited at my hospital, but I do have the option to bring her to the vet school…again, both groups advised against it unless I really wanted to be throwing money down the drain.

She has an appt with her regular vet next week, I’m going to be pushier about the meds. It’s not even the three recent ones that are a few weeks apart, but the fact that there could have been more in those gaps that no one caught.

[Miss_Anne_Thrope]

I will be paying attention to this thread, so I hope you report back after you see your vet next week. I have simply taken my vet’s advice to just monitor, and we never talked about any medications at all.

There’s a poodle in my agility class that I just found out the other week has been on long-term phenobarb for seizures. That dog is as energetic and full of personality as they come.

[Horsegal984]

My childhood golden was on Phenobarb for almost 9 years for epilepsy. He was fine after he adjusted. I don’t remember really even any significant side effects during that period either, but he wasn’t started on a loaded dose, just maintenance dosing.

However please ask your vet about zonisimide. If they’re not familiar with it ask if they can call the veterinary neurology department at the vet school for a consult. Usually that has a minimal if any charge and would be money well spent. There’s also Keppra, Potassium Bromide, Neurontin, and I’m sure some more I don’t know about as well.

Between the increased frequency and the possibility of some being missed I would be concerned about not starting treatment soon and therefore making the seizures harder to control in the long run.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;7867256]
There’s also Keppra, Potassium Bromide, Neurontin, and I’m sure some more I don’t know about as well.

Between the increased frequency and the possibility of some being missed I would be concerned about not starting treatment soon and therefore making the seizures harder to control in the long run.[/QUOTE]

Keppra is what they recommended as a first step after her particularly bad spell this spring. Funny how you can’t remember things until you see it right in front of you, and then your brain clicks.

She has an appt next week, I’ll insist on the drugs.

[Pancakes]

Keppra is great, very few side effects and more affordable than it used to be (but still more expensive than pheno), BUT…it has to be given every 8 hours which is tough for some people. (it’s also known as levetiracetam).

KBr (potassium bromide) is also very good first-line seizure med, but it does have some side effects and requires monitoring the way pheno does.

Don’t think there is a lot of luck with gabapentin (neurontin) having true seizure control as a first-line drug in dogs. Maybe as an additional. I use it much more frequently for nerve-based pain control.

I still think pheno is great, once you get past the first week or two. Usually they adjust fine and there is little to no sedation.

[Bluey]

Of course, you need to do what your vets tell you, just so you are sure they are getting the whole picture every time you are there talking about this.
Then, the recommendation may still be that she is not where she needs medication.

In our dog club, there was a golden that had seizures related to low blood sugar.
She was first on medication, once they figured what it was, she didn’t need any medication any longer, as long as she had something to eat regularly.
If she missed a meal for too long, she would again have a seizure, so that didn’t happen after that was found to be the cause for her.
That was a dog with obedience titles and several agility MACHs.

My dog was the same, there was no change, no side effects, on pheno or off.
It really was started as a diagnostic procedure and since it worked to stop the seizures, we continued for two years.

Each dog’s case is different, depending on what parts of the brain are affected.

Just more to think about.

[CoolSilver]

I would definitely make sure you talk to your vet each time you are concerned, and that way they know how often this is happening. Our 10 year old border collie started having seizures around this time last year. He woke me up at 4 am doing that same type of seizure in the video. It lasted for about 10 minutes or so (I wasn’t watching the time because I was having a slight panic attack trying to contact my mother who is an ER nurse and was at work, because I was home alone and he couldn’t really move) and on our way to the Emergency Vet his symptoms almost went away. He kept having what I thought were muscle twitches in his shoulder, lips , and side when we got there every 20 minutes. They ran blood and sent us to our regular vet at 7 am. They said everything came back normal and to keep watching it as he does not have a history. He kept having the muscle twitches every other week, and we finally called our vet. She said those can be a type of seizure, and because it was spring and going to be hot soon in the SUmmer she suggest the RX of Phenobarb. We started the dosage slowly because he was off balance on the full dosage, but after a month he was back to his old self! I have only seen him have the muscle twitches once since on the medicine and that was closer to when we had just started.

Also, we just took him in for his yearly check up and his thyroid was low. No sure that has anything to do with it, since his bloodwork came back fine that day, but now he is on his thyroid medicine and his phenobarb both twice a day. Besides being hungry more often (which he always has been even before the medicine lol) his is very happy and so far seizure free for 6 months

I love that our vet listens to us, and she knows that I am a worrier so she always tells us to call if we feel unsure about anything. I hope everything gets figured out soon for your beautiful girl!

[Kat_Renee]

My aussie mix started having seizures around 2 years old. Very long story short, he has grand mal seizures. He is currently on Pheno and Potassium Bromide. I have tried switching to grain-free, different types of grain-free/preservative free and that doesn’t help. I haven’t tried raw because I’m scared I will get the ratios mixed up. I’ve just accepted the fact that he is an epileptic and that’s the way it is.

When first starting the pheno and any increase we did, he was very lethargic, woozy, and thirsty. It would take him about a month to get over it. One thing that hasn’t gone away: constant hunger. We would get blood and liver panels done every 6 months (every 3 months in the very beginning) to make sure his blood levels and liver enzymes were normal. When on medication, he would typically have a seizure every 6-8 weeks. He is now 6. Once there was a gap of 6 months seizure free a few years back. We started the Potassium Bromide about a year and a half ago after a few cluster seizures. I didn’t want to increase his Pheno, so we added the PB. Right now, it has been 5 months and 2 days since his last seizure.

We also keep diazepam (liquid valium) on hand in case of a seizure. We give it rectally as soon as he stops thrashing to pull him out of the seizure. My vet has told me in the past that with some of their clients that only have 1 or two seizures a year diazepam on hand is the only medicine they use.

[toady123]

I feel your pain. We just went through this at the beginning of September with our lab. The day before school started she was laying on the ground and started drooling and curling her lips. Thought she was going to be sick - let her out and she walked around, came back in and was fine. That night, she had a violent grand mal seizure.

We did an emergency on-call and the vet administered valium and sent us home. She surmised that the event earlier in the day had been a focal seizure. She suggested pulling blood the next day for toxicity and to go from there. She did mention that if blood work was normal they would not normally prescribe meds for the first seizure. Well the next morning she had another grand mal seizure so once blood work came back normal she was put on meds because 3 in 24 hours, with no prior history, was considered severe.

I have spoken to the vet quite a bit, and done my own research and generally they consider 1 seizure or less per month “under control” (e.g. if dog is on meds they would likely maintain dosage, if dog is NOT on meds they would not likely prescribe). Of course if the seizures become more frequent, more prolonged or violent they would re-assess.

So, I don’t think it’s surprising that they have not provided meds, however if you are starting to see them more frequently, or a change in her behaviour I would be speaking with the vet, or getting a second opinion of you don’t have the confidence in the person treating her.

It’s hard. Those first two seizures were AWFUL to watch. She literally fell over and started having full-body convulsions with drool flying everywhere. In trying to keep her from whacking her head on the wall she kicked me so hard I had a huge black bruise on my arm for two weeks (and she is petite for a lab - only about 55 pounds). Having to watch her come out of it was worse. My normally laid-back, calm quiet lab was shaking, pacing, crying and anxious for a number of days afterwards. It was heartbreaking. Fortunately the meds have controlled it entirely, and she is back to her old self and seizure free.

We elected for phenobarb as keppra was going to run us $200 a month. It also had the quickest time to reach therapeutic levels and given the severity and frequency of her seizures we elected to go this route and have been happy with it so far. She was a bit ‘drunk’ and out of it the first week, and we ended up running bloodwork earlier than planned just to ensure that her dosage was OK and all was well. Within 2 weeks she was back to her old self. The only difference is her hunger has dialed up (which was bad enough before being a labbie!! :)) she is convinced we are starving her to death.

There are other meds that are available in the USA that we can’t get here in Canada so you can ask if you are in the US. We will have to test her liver every 6 months, and she also gets bloodwork to ensure the dosage is right which we will be diligent about. So far it has worked very well for us.

Good luck!! I hope you get a resolution soon.

[Beckham03]

Is there a neurologist you can take him to? I work at a specialty hosp and our neurologist would have started something now. Seizures starting at his age are still most likely do to primary epilepsy.

Keppra is our go to. It is cheap at Costco. I have a dog on Keppra XR and it is around $70 a month at Costco. He is a current neurology patient and had seizures do to a possible stroke. I choose to keep him on anticonvulsants as I don’t want to come home and find him in status. I have seen it too many times at work.

I keep nasal Midazolam on hand as part of his rescue protocol if he has one. Our standard go home states to bring them in if they have a sz lasting more then 5 min or 3 in 24 hours.

[JBD]

Our Pom was adopted from a shelter, an owner surrender. She had a couple of seizures of a few minutes each but as some have mentioned, they were far enough apart in time that the vet had us monitor her. One day she had 3 within a 2 hour period and we took her to the ER. They tested her blood and found no cause. But they recommended pheno and she’s on a twice a day dose. I’ve seen a couple of what I’d call mini seizures and sometimes she gets a little spacy. But most of the time, she’s the same cutey that we adopted. She has gained a couple pounds which on a 6 pound dog is not healthy and I feel the pheno lowered her metabolism.