Doggy Seizures and Cannabis Oil?

[MtnDrmz]

Hi Everyone,

A little backstory so you have more of an idea of where we are coming from…

I am the extremely proud [obsessed] momma of a 4 year old Chocolate Lab (Half english, half field). He is a fit, shiny, happy, and seemingly normal healthy dog, except for that he has started having siezures (mix of idiopathic and one definite gran Mahl) about a year and a half ago. Five that we have witnessed, and since my husband is home the majority of the time we don’t believe there have been others. They are mostly spread out about 3-4 months, and involve him on the floor shaking for 2-5 minutes, at some level (like a really intense shiver). Luckily he has not had violent ones that cause him to flail. He is back to normal within 15 minutes or less. He just went over five months without having one, but just had a seemingly milder (shorter and was more idiopathic) one yesterday. We of course have had him tested for blood work, done some workups, but everything comes back normal. Our vet said this is common for chocolate Labs and is most likely a nuerological abnormality that they just can’t see, but not warranting itense (MRI) testing at this stage.

Becuase he is so young, and due to what I have read and discussed with others regarding the more traditional siezure meds, we choose to not start him on anything since the seizures are pretty spread out and we don’t want to risk liver/kidney damage at such ayoung age, nor turn him into a vegetable. He is on a mostly Raw diet with a small amount of high quality grain-free kibble, he gets coconut oil in the morning and olive oil in the evening. His food is formulated so that he gets the proper balance of nutrients. We had been grainfree due to his skin sensitivites for a while, but went Raw after the first seizure. He is not allowed any treats that have any sort of flavoring added as we think this is a trigger for him. I mention this so that you can get an idea of what he is eating as I know that can sometimes be a trigger and issue. Our vet is in support of his current diet.

Since the seizures are still happening, I have an aquantaince who works in dog wellness with vets, that has suggested some sort of Cannabis oil, or CBD. PLEASE NOTE IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY PSYHCOTROPIC EFFECT, so please no animal abuse or whatever comments ok! I personally have no issue with medical forms of this or it’s originating plant, so I am not looking for ethical arguments or whatever.

What I am curious about is if anyone has tried this. Was it effective and how hard was the dosing to get right, and how easy was it to find a vet who was open ot it? I have not brought this up to our vet yet, but I don’t expect him to be super open as most of these sorts of alternative treatments get frowned upon, nor do I expect him to be even familiar with it. For what I can see, it seems like there are few to little sideffects with using the oils and they could be effective for reducing siezures. I am definitely curious to hear anyone’s experience! Has anyone tried it and how was it? Were you able to find knowledgeable people to help with treatment?

Other natural alternatives would be welcomed as well if anyone has had success!!

[pezk]

Sorry for my ignorance but I don’t know the difference between cannabis oil and cannabis. There was a report on our news this am about emergency vets seeing more Sick dogs due to ingesting different forms of marijuana. Lots of time bringing on coma and death.
I don’t know if that has any relationship to what you are proposing. Just reporting, just in case.

[MtnDrmz]

Cannabis oil does not have the psyhcotropic effects that the plant in others forms does. I know of a few people who had edibles (with the real deal, not just the oil) left out in various forms and their dog got to it, and ate wayyyy to much of not only the part that the humans were trying to eat, but the food it was baked into as well.

Not sure if that could be related to what you saw?

[pezk]

This is very similiar to what the news was reporting:
http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/marijuana/

[MtnDrmz]

[QUOTE=pezk;8670301]
This is very similiar to what the news was reporting:
http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/marijuana/[/QUOTE]

This is interesting, but it seems to be pointing towards the full boddied plant, not the oil specifically. I do know that their is already some in use on the market that does not seem to have these affects. The THC is almost nil, and what you are left with is a strong anti-oxidant

[Simkie]

It’s actually cannabidiol oil, not cannabis oil. CBD is one of the compounds found in cannabis, but does not have the psychoactive effects of THC, which is the compound in cannabis that gets you high.

No idea about using it for your dog, but certainly sounds like it can’t hurt to try. I know nothing about it but what I found on Google investigating the hemp oil thread, but I did considering ordering some for my pain issues.

Give it a try and let us know how it goes!

Oh, here’s the wiki for those curious: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol

[Beckham03]

I’ve seen stories where the oil helped humans when no other medications would. I’m not against alternative methods at all, but have no experience in how they may affect your dog.

Lots of threads on here of folks on here and how they dealt with their dogs epilepsy, some were more serious then others. I’m a little perplexed by your vet’s comment about this being a common abnormality, or neurological deficit that did not require further testing. Is he a neurologist? And no, unless you have a border collie with the genetic mutation, it is not just routine for your dog to have seizures. Idiopathic just means that you don’t know what is causing them. I am glad none of them have been grand mal.

Usually, primary epilepsy is diagnosed in dogs under five, with a normal neurologic exams. And often, people do just what you do, monitor and don’t medicate unless the seizures become more violent, longer, or have increased frequency. Secondary epilepsy is caused by something else…brain tumor, disease, congenital malformation…usually fully diagnosed by MRI, etc.

Before you make any decision to medicate with anything at all, I urge you to have your dog examined by a neurologist and go from there. There are anticonvulsants now, such as Levetiracetam, that have little to no supine effects. At work, we just said goodbye to a patient with bad epilepsy that the neurologist managed for 8 years and gave her a great life. Her death was unrelated to the seizures.

You sound like a very proactive dog owner!! Good luck!

Oh, any seizure that lasts more then five minutes or three or more seizures in a 24 hr period is an emergency…go straight to the ER.

[MtnDrmz]

[QUOTE=Beckham03;8670579]
I’ve seen stories where the oil helped humans when no other medications would. I’m not against alternative methods at all, but have no experience in how they may affect your dog.

Lots of threads on here of folks on here and how they dealt with their dogs epilepsy, some were more serious then others. I’m a little perplexed by your vet’s comment about this being a common abnormality, or neurological deficit that did not require further testing. Is he a neurologist? And no, unless you have a border collie with the genetic mutation, it is not just routine for your dog to have seizures. Idiopathic just means that you don’t know what is causing them. I am glad none of them have been grand mal.

Usually, primary epilepsy is diagnosed in dogs under five, with a normal neurologic exams. And often, people do just what you do, monitor and don’t medicate unless the seizures become more violent, longer, or have increased frequency. Secondary epilepsy is caused by something else…brain tumor, disease, congenital malformation…usually fully diagnosed by MRI, etc.

Before you make any decision to medicate with anything at all, I urge you to have your dog examined by a neurologist and go from there. There are anticonvulsants now, such as Levetiracetam, that have little to no supine effects. At work, we just said goodbye to a patient with bad epilepsy that the neurologist managed for 8 years and gave her a great life. Her death was unrelated to the seizures.

You sound like a very proactive dog owner!! Good luck!

Oh, any seizure that lasts more then five minutes or three or more seizures in a 24 hr period is an emergency…go straight to the ER.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the info! I was surprised by our vets comments as well, and he is actually a newer vet to us, and I will say I am not 100% sold. We have taken our pup to the Vet immediately after two of his seizures, for getting checked out (two different vets offices actually) and they both just talked about monitoring him, since they are spread out and not violent. I do want to do something though, he is so young and would hate to see this plague him his whole life. I have casually looked for a neurologist in my area, and I am afraid of the cost to be honest, but since it keeps happening we may have to look that route.

[toady123]

I posted on the most recent seizure thread so this may be mostly a repeat.

I too had a chocolate lab with seizures. Hers were closer together and generally clustered badly.

I would echo the idea of getting a neuro consult. Your vet is correct that at a younger age it’s less likely to be structural, and he may not need medical intervention yet. But a neurologist sees this every day, and can provide more comprehensive tracking and suggestions.

The cost is not much more than a wellness check with the vet, so in my mind it made sense to go to the expert.

There are also meds that do not affect the liver and can be quite effective. Sometimes it is a combination of meds that works best (ours was on phenobarb, zonisamide and keppra). We did try potassium bromide and that turned her into a raving lunatic so we stopped that.

The neurologist can provide guidance.

[ChunkyMonkey]

CBD and THC are two different types of cannabidiols, which are substances in cannabis. CBS’s are not psychotrophic, and don’t contain THC.

Now, I can’t say anything for dogs, but for people with epilepsy, CBD oil has been proven to reduce or completely eliminate seizures. I did find an article that shows that CBD oil helped reduce seizures in lab mice, but that was the only animal study that I could find (http://www.seizure-journal.com/article/S1059-1311(12)00057-X/abstract).

I nanny two twin girls with chronic lyme disease, along with a plethora of other ailments. They are both on CBD oil for their stomach and intestinal issues. Since starting CBD oil a few months ago, their symptoms have improved. They are on other medications as well though, so I’m not sure how much of it is due to the CBD oil, or if some of the other medications have inhibited the CBD oil working as it should be.

Now, there isn’t just a generic form of CBD oil that works miracles for everyone. They’re taken from plants that have specialized blends of indicas and sativas. Generally, for medical grade CBD oil, you want a plant that has a higher blend of sativas than indicas, but absolutely a blend. I’d recommend talking to your vet, and seeing what input they have on where you may be able to find such a blend.

[MtnDrmz]

Thank you Chunky Monkey and Toady123!!! As mentioned I am new to my current vet and while not 100% sold, maybe he wasn’t totally off as I was starting to question in his “wait and see” method. I have been searching for a neurologist in my area so I am going to call and see what their rates are and see if we can get something set up. I did a search for Seizure threads, but I didn’t seem to see as many as there must be bsed on these comments (looked mostly at titles). I will have to go look more in depth on some of the results! Any links are welcome

Thank you from me and Bowie!

[Pancakes]

For a first time, isolated seizure, a “wait and see” approach is fine. For a 4 year old Labrador, it is not. While he’s probably epileptic, you should seek the input of a veterinary neurologist for an accurate diagnosis.

I echo other’s encouragements to seek anti-seizure medication, or at least discuss it. Not all medications have horrible side effects and are damaging. If your dog’s seizures are becoming more frequent, it is imperative you have him on something, so now’s the time to have that discussion.

As far as the cannabinoid oils… I have not heard of them being used effectively to prevent seizures specifically, but I do not think it would be harmful to try. Other alternative means of therapies I’ve seen used effectively include acupuncture and implantation of gold beads at certain acupuncture points.

THC toxicity is pretty common where I am and as an emergency vet I see it often. Maybe 1/10 cases require hospitalization, but none of the ones I’ve seen (fortunately) are critically ill. Most of the time they just stare in a stupor for a few days until they metabolize it and wake up. Edibles (cookies, brownies) are much more likely to produce a toxicity than other sources.

[MtnDrmz]

His seizures are actually somewhat predictable in terms of time lapse between, and the last two seem to be less intense then the previous ones. His most recent was over his normal time frame (5 months instead of 3-4), we were almost thinking he wouldn’t have one, but we did notice an extra desperation in his attention seeking the few days prior so we’re keeping and eye on him. I am reaching out to a neurologist as well! The oil does not have any real levels if THC!

[SquishTheBunny]

I think you are likely going to see better results with a known AED, but lots of people believe in following a more natural way of treating seizures.

I will say that dogs will all respond differently to different medications. Your dog is definitely on the borderline of needing meds. It’s generally recommended for dogs who seizure more than twice a year. 3 times a year is still a very low frequency.

If you are worried about long term effects of medication I would talk to a neurologist. There are many many different medications. Keppra, while a bit pricey, is not metabolized through the liver where phenobarbital is (bit is an excellent drug for dogs who seizure freqiently).

I would also be very careful with what raw food you give. It can be an excellent diet if prepared right, but we have imaged a few dogs who presented with head tilts and seizures and they ended up having some worm cysts in their brains from raw meat! Unfortunatley its confirmation diagnosis was on post mortem the owes fed raw beef and pork.