Doing LD (A 25 miler)

[Kyzteke]

A friend of mine long wanted to do an “endurance” ride but never really knew how to condition a horse. Since there is going to be a ride in mid-Sept. very close to home, I have offered to go with her and use 2 of my horses.

I figure I can condition the horses just fine…neither one of us are going to set any speed records…but I wonder if we need to feed the horses along the way.

I know in 50 mile+ rides the horses are usually offered a meal or two (at least hay) at some of the stops.

Does one need to do this for a 25 miler? Water, of course, but anything other than some good quality grass hay?

[gothedistance]

Yes, one needs to feed a horse during a 25 miler. The average rule of feeding is this: a horse should not go longer than 13 miles without a meal, or without having some glucose being delivered to the stomach in the form of roughage or sweet snacks.

Endurance, and LD, have vet checks that are staged with this rule in mind - loops rarely (if ever) exceeding 20 miles. In the case of an LD, you can expect the first vet check anywhere between 10 and 18 miles.

And it isn’t the horse is “usually offered a meal or two” it is the horse is ABSOLUTELY offered a meal or two or three or a banquet or whatever the horse will get down their throat at the vet checks. Food from alfalfa hay or cubes, to beet pulp mixed with molassas and apples and carrots, to their choice of grains.

Any horse that doesn’t eat runs the big risk of becoming metabolically unstable the longer the distance. Even a 25 can seriously deplete the equine digestive system of all energy and then start demanding glucose from the harder-to-deliver fat systems to fuel the muscles. So immediately refueling through the stomach at least every 10 miles - even just 5-6 carrots - keeps the horse at optimum. No feeding at all means a possible crash and burn because some horses then shut down and WON’T eat.

It is always a good idea to carry some equine snack with you - a quart sized plastic bag of grain, horse cookies, apples, or (best yet) carrots which are very high in both water and fiber and are a complete food for a horse. Put them in your pockets, or in your saddlebags along with water and power bars for yourself. The good things about apples and carrots are that the rider can snack on them as well. And I know of quite a few horses that would be happy to snack along with you on a power bar if only asked. :lol:

[DancingArabian]

[QUOTE=gothedistance;7527451]
It is always a good idea to carry some equine snack with you - a quart sized plastic bag of grain, horse cookies, apples, or (best yet) carrots which are very high in both water and fiber and are a complete food for a horse. Put them in your pockets, or in your saddlebags along with water and power bars for yourself. The good things about apples and carrots are that the rider can snack on them as well. And I know of quite a few horses that would be happy to snack along with you on a power bar if only asked. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Not intending to hijack the thread here but I was thinking of hitting the trails harder this summer.

Is 1 quart sized bag enough? I was thinking that I should get some kind of backpack and carry snacks but I wasn’t sure what kind and how much. Should I pack a bag of his regular feed and hay pellets and then something like apples/carrots/granola bars separately?

Ugh and I’d need to figure out how to carry a bucket! Ideas, anyone?

Trail riding isn’t supposed to be hard!

[ehwaz]

[QUOTE=DancingArabian;7527546]
Not intending to hijack the thread here but I was thinking of hitting the trails harder this summer.

Is 1 quart sized bag enough? I was thinking that I should get some kind of backpack and carry snacks but I wasn’t sure what kind and how much. Should I pack a bag of his regular feed and hay pellets and then something like apples/carrots/granola bars separately?

Ugh and I’d need to figure out how to carry a bucket! Ideas, anyone?

Trail riding isn’t supposed to be hard![/QUOTE]
How many miles are you thinking of doing? If you are doing less than 20, conditioning up to them slowly, you don’t have to carry too much.

Where are you - is there decent grass/water on the trail?If so, stop every 1/2 hr or so to let your horse grab a bite.
On long conditioning rides this is what I do (in an area with good grass and generally good water)

• carry a few carrots/granola bars and some soaked beetpulp/hay pellets- about 1/2 of a gallon baggie.

• I feed the carrots/granola bars when I stop to fiddle with tack, at creeks, etc- about 1 an hour

• if we go by a nice grassy spot, I stop to let my horse grab a few bites- max 5 mins

• at lunch, I search for a grassy spot- I put the mash on the ground(on top of grass). I get off, eat my sandwich, horse eats hers.

• I carry a flexible water scoops(waterproof canvas, folds up in saddle bag) to get water out of creeks that my horse can’t get into.

^ This is for 20-40 mile rides done slowly on a fit(multiday 50s) horse.

For rides less than 10 miles, I don’t carry anything, stop at grass and creeks

10-20 - Carry snacks(carrots/granola), stop at grass and creeks

To the OP’s questions- yes, absolutely feed during the ride and in training. When competing, I shoot for my horse having at least a bite or 2 every 15-30 minutes. You need to keep their guts moving. For a 25 hay is probably sufficient, although soaked beetpulp/haypellets/other feed can be a great way to keep them hydrated, same with carrots. IF you have more nutrition questions, I have found that Susan Garlinghouses articles are a great resource(google Susan Garlinghouse Endurance )

[Kyzteke]

OK…I gotta ask…I am out West where quite afew horses work on the range where they are working cattle, fixing fence, etc. (THEY aren’t fixing the fence, of course, but the riders are). I know the cowboys don’t offer these horses food OR water every 15-30 mins.…if they did they’d never get anything done!

Although the ride itself will offer water, our training rides do not cross any water at all. So do I need to haul water up there ahead of time? Even for 10 miles?

And if you are stopping to let them eat grass, how does one make the time required? I can’t imagine that afew mouths of grass would carry much nutritional value.

I’ve never ridden an endurance ride, but I have ridden alot in the mtns. and I don’t stop every hour. Is it the speed that makes the feeding important?

And seriously…every 30 mins?!

I went on a “poker ride” afew summers ago; it was 15 miles with some fairly steep climbs here and there. We didn’t carry water for ourselves (or food) and both horses & riders did just fine…so I guess I’m missing something.

[ehwaz]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7527803]
OK…I gotta ask…I am out West where quite afew horses work on the range where they are working cattle, fixing fence, etc. (THEY aren’t fixing the fence, of course, but the riders are). I know the cowboys don’t offer these horses food OR water every 15-30 mins.…if they did they’d never get anything done!

Although the ride itself will offer water, our training rides do not cross any water at all. So do I need to haul water up there ahead of time? Even for 10 miles?

And if you are stopping to let them eat grass, how does one make the time required? I can’t imagine that afew mouths of grass would carry much nutritional value.

I’ve never ridden an endurance ride, but I have ridden alot in the mtns. and I don’t stop every hour. Is it the speed that makes the feeding important?

And seriously…every 30 mins?!

I went on a “poker ride” afew summers ago; it was 15 miles with some fairly steep climbs here and there. We didn’t carry water for ourselves (or food) and both horses & riders did just fine…so I guess I’m missing something.[/QUOTE]

By a bite every 15-30 minutes, I mean a mouthful grabbed from the side of the trail while trotting/walking. - Grab and Go-

I don’t think you have to haul water for training rides, especially for only 10 miles, but be aware where water is located. I would make sure you have water at the trailer if you have to haul to a trailhead. I am Northern California- it is rare that we don’t pass a puddle at least every hour.

I am less concerned with the nutritional value that keeping blood flow to the guts moving, which happens if something is going through the GI tract.

I would say that the faster pace of endurance rides does make feeding important.

I can do a 15 mile loop without water- I’ve done a 25 without food(by mistake,got lost). However, not having it makes me less alert and weaker- ie: not going to get off to run a section of trail,etc. Just out of curiosity- how long did the 15 mile poker ride take? Pace makes a big difference.

I am a very conservative rider in terms of speed and I give my horse more opportunities than others do to eat and drink( never had lower than an B on hydration or guts, no pulls) . I am also asking my horse to go 50 miles a day, for up to 3 days in a row(so far, hoping for a 5 day someday), year after year. I try to make things as easy for her as possible.

I also live in a region with lots of natural water and grass, so her grabbing a bite while we are moving is no big deal. Whenever I cross a stream, I give her the opportunity to drink. That doesn’t mean she does( probably drinks about every 8-10 miles if we are moving fast).

[saratoga]

There is usually no water available on my conditioning rides / trail rides (up to about 5 hours) and the horses do fine. I sure do wish there was water but they drink a lot when they get back and I’ve never had a problem. I let my horses snack on the trail and bring some treats with me but I don’t pack significant amounts of food.
On endurances rides, including 25s, you want your horse to eat and drink as much as possible! And definitely provide food at the midway vet check. Hay is fine…doesn’t have to be grain or beet pulp…in fact, I usually bring different things or share with friends, whatever my horse most feels like eating.

[gothedistance]

I had a private query asking “If you don’t mind my asking, what kind of conditioning do you do to prep?”

First, for anyone wishing to condition their horse properly for an LD/Endurance, I had written a primer for the Old Dominion Endurance Rides webpage. It is the sum of over a decade of riding Endurance, and is designed to help the novice with learning how to get started, how to condition, how to be successful in competition, and how to build on the enthusiam in both horse and rider that make this sport such a blast to ride and enjoy.

So for the horse, just follow the protocol in the How To Do Endurance Primer.

Second, my best advice to anyone wishing to start out in this sport is to condition YOURSELF as well as your horse. You may not think of it this way, but you are the weakest link, and your ability to balance yourself, hold up your end of the stick, and make yourself the lightest, easiest burden your horse will carry is crucial…nay, let’s say “vitally critical” … to your horse’s success.

So, for the human I would strongly suggest WALKING. Not strolling around your workplace, or the house, or the back yard. But finding a place that has slopes, undulating ground, softer ground - anything that will give your muscles a workout. Start slow - a 1/2 mile is more than enough initially. As your muscles build strength, and your wind increases, and your heart rate begins to drop with your conditioning, start to increase the miles SLOWLY. Your overall goal should be 3 miles at least 3-4 times a week. Not on level ground - on rolling ground so you can get your heart rate up, and push your fitness to the next level. No gym or high school track can give you this type of workout. You NEED to do the up and downs.

Will write more later - have to go somewhere now.

[Kyzteke]

GTD: great info. Thanks. I agree that with ANY equestrian sport, the rider needs to be as fit as the horse. You are doing your horse a great dis-service if you are not.

Re; the pace of the poker ride…it’s been afew years ago, so hard to recall. It was near my house, so we just rode over to the start (that was about 3 miles each way). I’m thinking we rode about 3- 3.5 hrs in the actual ride. So not going that fast. We didn’t take any breaks although we did vary between walk & trot.

What is the time limit for a 25? I know it’s 12 hrs for a 50 & 24 for a 100…I assume 6 hrs for a 25? And that includes (or does NOT include) a vet check?

[ehwaz]

6hrs, including vet check time for a 25. Vet check will be at least 1/2 hr, possible more depending on ride.

[gothedistance]

K - The official time to ride a 25 mile LD is 6 hours. That time encompasses the moment the trail is opened at the start, to the moment the clock hits 6 hour from the start. Before that clock hits the end of ride time you must have crossed the finish line AND your horse MUST be pulsed down to the end-of-ride criteria for you to have “finished” the trail. All that time in-between you have to ride the trail AND compete the vet check(s) the ride management has in place.

Your final vetting must be within an hour of your finish time. When your horse passes the final vetting, you are considered to have “completed” the ride and are eligible for placings and/or ride awards. The vet (now called a “Control Judge”) will retain your rider card which will be collected by the Ride Secretary who will record your information so that it can be sent to AERC who will update you and your horse’s mileage and division records to show you completed the ride.

AERC sets an incremental time scale for miles over the standard: ie: 30 miles would be 7 hours 15 minutes, 35 miles would be accorded 8 hours 30 minutes.

I’ve done a lot of poker rides in my (long) foxhunting career - some done at a mad crazy gallop over a course (how I survived my incurable lust for jumping massive fences and wild riding in my horse crazed 20’s I will NEVER know :eek:), some at a leisurely relaxed pace. If you rode about 3.5 hours you traveled about 4-5 mph. Fairly simple for a horse to do (I personally walk at 3.7mph), and not too stressful. That said, horses are very stoic creatures, and most are taught NOT to look for food while the rider is on their back, so they just suck it up and deal with being hungry as the hours stretch on. Had you offered your horse some bites of grass, I’m sure it would have eaten gladly.

It is best not to compare Endurance horses needs with horses being used for cattle ranching, or group hacking across the countryside. The pace assumed by the Endurance riders …and many times by LD riders as well … is a true working pace designed to cover the miles at a consistent speed. Water and food along the way are critical to keep gut mobility at optimum; the gut fuels the horse, and easily digested carbohydrate food (hay, beet pulp, carrots, apples) fuels the gut.

[rainechyldes]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7527803]
OK…I gotta ask…I am out West where quite afew horses work on the range where they are working cattle, fixing fence, etc. (THEY aren’t fixing the fence, of course, but the riders are). I know the cowboys don’t offer these horses food OR water every 15-30 mins.…if they did they’d never get anything done!

Although the ride itself will offer water, our training rides do not cross any water at all. So do I need to haul water up there ahead of time? Even for 10 miles?

And if you are stopping to let them eat grass, how does one make the time required? I can’t imagine that afew mouths of grass would carry much nutritional value.

I’ve never ridden an endurance ride, but I have ridden alot in the mtns. and I don’t stop every hour. Is it the speed that makes the feeding important?

And seriously…every 30 mins?!

I went on a “poker ride” afew summers ago; it was 15 miles with some fairly steep climbs here and there. We didn’t carry water for ourselves (or food) and both horses & riders did just fine…so I guess I’m missing something.[/QUOTE]

My main training loop is 12 miles long. Depending on the time of year, there is or isn’t water available, and the forage is your typical thin forest grass.
Most of the rides here share that same type of water/forage. The issue isn’t being a cowboy horse out fixing fencing, the issue is health of your horse versus the time/speed you are requesting he take you. A horse who doesn’t eat/drink on a 25 mile ride can colic easily - I’ve seen it happen. tie-ups, etc etc. The few seconds it takes every few miles to let your horse drop his head and grab a mouthful of grass is one bite closer to finishing safely.

Most endurance horses will drink out of puddles that might be on the trail due to weather as well if there aren’t any actual bodies of water. But no water - then let em graze on the run. remember - grass has moisture in it - every little bit helps.

The idea is to let the horse’s gut keep working. Hydration helps with that a lot of course, any bit of fodder will help - horses are grazers by nature, empty working tummy =ulcers/colic/dehydration - nothing like spending the rest of the weekend watching the vet IV your horses for 4 hours to kill the fun you just had:/

Most horses once they get the hang of it, - won’t slow you down a bit and still manage to get some busy food in while on their loop.

At vet checks - food and water - golden rule. No matter the distance. weather or fitness of the horse.

[patti]

GTD and the rest of the gang are doing a super job answering your questions but I’ll throw a couple of other resources out there.

http://www.aerc.org/AERC_Rider_Handbook.pdf

When you join AERC (there is a discount for new members sponsored by EasyCare Inc.) the office also sends you a pile of excellent articles and guides for getting through your first ride.

Also, check out the webpage for a list of mentors, and if you can’t find one in your neck of the woods, give the office a call (or send me a note) and we’ll hunt down some names of folks close to you if you’re interested in a little help, or to go conditioning with some more experienced competitors who can assist you with pacing and other questions that might be best answered in person.

Many of us just learned the hard way by making tons of mistakes, but it’s not what I’d recommend!

Re: the eating thing on trail. Here’s how I think of it and it might work for you too. In general, a horse is competing their 25/50/100 mile ride on the forage in their hindgut from 24-48 hours prior to the ride. The concept of making sure they CONTINUE to eat is more about keeping the guts moving and working and churning and processing just as they are meant to, to prevent ileus and therefore, colic. So think of the eating along the trail, when it’s possible to do it, as ‘priming the pump’ more than filling the tank with gasoline.

Does that make sense?

We carry a handful of Nature Valley granola bars in our pommel packs and our horses will stop and turn their heads when they hear the sound of that wrapper crackling! (Even if we are just grabbing for a water bottle and happen to rattle an already-empty package. <grin>)

Good luck. Good questions, keep them comin’!

–Patti

[candysgirl]

At the hold of a LD ride, my Arab is offered the following: plain water, a pound or so of carrots (usually broken up into the various buckets of other things - he typically goes through and picks them all out), a scoop of his normal feed, a bucket of soaked hay pellets or cubes and his hay net. I let him choose what he wants from those options.

While on the trail, he drinks at pretty much any water source he can and snags stuff to eat while we trot along. He’s very good at grabbing bites (and goes bitless) without breaking stride.

If my training ride is 10-15mi, he grabs bites as we trot along. I don’t worry about water for a 10-15mi training ride. I train on much flatter and easier terrain than what we compete on (I don’t have a choice, its flat where I live). When fit, we can do a flat 15mi in just over an hour (all trot and canter) for a training ride. I don’t feel like that’s an unreasonable amount of time to ask him to go without water. Of course he’s thirsty when we get back, but no more so than if we school jumps or dressage for an hour in the arena.

[Kyzteke]

Thanks for all the info guys! Of course I would offer my horse food/water at the vet check, but I was alittle freaked out over the every 15-30 min statement.

Like many of you, I don’t have much (if any…depends on time of year) water on any of my local training rides. We would have to trail to those. And we may during the course of our training, but it won’t be a routine thing.

Why would a horse be using nutrition given 24-48 hrs prior? If a ride starts at 7am (say) would there be a problem giving the horse a BP mix at 5am? Speaking for both of my horses, it would be gone by 5:15.

I will have to retrain MYSELF about the “grabbing a bite on the trail thing”…most of my horses are trained to NOT graze/grab while moving. It will be interesting to see how it goes…the ride is mid-Sept., so will probably be cool. Doubt if there will be water on the trail though that time of year…OR grass for that matter.

And I agree…afew hours is not a big deal to ask a horse to go without water. I think our horses can do much more than we think they can.

BTW, as a point of history/interest ONLY, here are some excerpts from an article on the history of the Akhal Teke, one of my favorite breeds:
Besides utilizing the horses in wars, they were often useful to the nomads in their attacks on caravans coming from Bukhara or Samarkand on their way to India. Because the life of these „robber knights? depended on the speed and endurance of their horses, special attention was paid to their training and preparation. In his book, "Travels through Turkmenia and China: the Russian Muravjew (1820) wrote about the performance and endurance of the Akhal-Teke horse; "It is hard to imagine what these horses can endure. In eight days, they cover about 143 German miles through waterless, bare deserts, eating only small quantities of millet and sometimes going without water four days in a row".

And then the famous (to Teke people anyway…) ride done in 1935:
]This was demonstrated most convincingly by the famous 1935 ride from Ashkhabad to Moscow a distance of 4330 km (2600 miles). Twenty-eight riders, riding Akhal-Tekes, the related Yomud breed and Anglo-Teke crosses, covered a broad range of terrain, including a severe three day 360km (215 miles) test under the sun of the scorching Kara Kum desert. From the desert, which though stressful, was familiar terrain, they then rode through mosquito infested swamps, over rugged stony footing, through heavy rain and huge forests. Eighty-four days later they arrived in Moscow. The purebred Akhal-Tekes, notably the stallions Arab and Alsakar, arrived in significantly better condition than the Anglo-Teke crosses, impressive evidence for the superiority of the purebred Akhal-Teke for hardiness and endurance.

If you do the math, these riders covering a MINIMUM of 31 miles everyday for 84 days in a row. Now THAT was an endurance ride!

I’ve read accounts of this ride (some riders kept diaries) and during the THREE DAYS it took to cross the Kara Kum desert, the horses had no water but sips from what the men were carrying. Food was almost nonexistent during that period…again except for handfuls of millet the men gave them.

These were horses who (along with their riders) had been used for patrolling the borders of Turkmenistan, so they were uber-fit. But they were really tested. And ALL horses arrived in Moscow with their riders…this is actually the event that prompted the Russia government to start a pure-bred Akhal Teke breeding program…

I think somewhere on YT there is a video of the riders entering Moscow. It was in all the papers & BIG NEWS in Russia at the time.

I guess they made horses seriously tough back then…

BUT, since I will be riding an older Arab mare & a grade gelding, no rides to Moscow for me…:winkgrin:

[tabula_rashah]

@Kyzteke;7531908

Why would a horse be using nutrition given 24-48 hrs prior? If a ride starts at 7am (say) would there be a problem giving the horse a BP mix at 5am? Speaking for both of my horses, it would be gone by 5:15.

Here’s a good link that describes the digestion process and the amount of time that food material stays in each part of the digestive system.

[candysgirl]

Overnight my horse has free choice hay and water. I usually get up about 3am the morning of the ride to check on him and give him his breakfast and make sure he’s got enough hay to last the rest of the night. I want that hard feed to be well on its way through his system before the ride starts.

As far as eating on the trail goes, my gelding knows based on his tack what the rules are. They are completely different when in hunting (we also foxhunt) than they are when we are on a trail, endurance or training ride.

When in foxhunting tack (same saddle, different pads, totally different snaffle bridle), he has to focus on what we’re doing 100% and isn’t allowed to eat while we’re moving. I do allow him to snack at checks if we’re in an appropriate place to do so. We don’t stop to drink at creeks/water sources. We’re usually out 2-3 hours at a time ranging from running top speed to stopping and hanging out while the hounds are gathered back up.

On endurance, trail, etc, rides he is bitless in a sidepull that is basically a glorified halter. He is allowed more or less unlimited leeway to eat whatever he can grab. My rule is that he is NOT allowed to break stride to do so. Only on trail rides (not training or actual competitions) do we stop specifically to eat. As we trot along, he’s usually grabbing something every minute or so. We stop at EVERY water source to allow him to drink.

[morgan01]

I did endurance rides for about 14 years. Really enjoyed it. I did all sorts of different training rides. Hill climbing one day, flat work another day, LSD one day. Just mix it up. One of those days I made sure I did at least 15 miles. Most of my training rides had no water on the trail. But I allowed her to have grass and that has water content in it. They adapt really well. Don’t forget the electrolytes during a 25 miler. If I was doing a long training ride, I’d also electrolyte. At the 25 mile vet check, I offer hay and will pack in my vet check bag a small amount of bran mash with goodies in it. Carrots, apples. Then I just have to dump that into the bowl and add water. They always enjoyed that. If you don’t have a pit crew, the vet check people will take your bag out for you.
And yes, a person should be fit also. I thought I was in great shape when I did the Tevis. OMG!!! I was the weak link and my horse got me thru it. The canyons were SO HOT!! My horse did awesome and took care of me
Thank god for all the volunteers at that ride so they could hold her while she ate and drank while I sat and felt sick!!

[DingDing]

Growing up in Pony Club. We were taught to NOT let our horses graze while under saddle. Since aiming my interest at Endurance, I have specifically allowed my horse to know that he is suppose to eat under saddle. My sister asked me on a trail ride a few days ago, “Why do you let him eat so much”. So I explained to her how important it is for them to eat under saddle so I want my horse to know that it is alright for him to do so. The only rule I have is he cannot yank the reins from me or break stride to munch.