Laurirace makes an excellent point wrt to detomidine (Dormosedan).
Xylazine (Rompun) Will also drop human blood pressure through the floor in ridiculously small amounts.
Which is why I almost never dispense either one.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8781862]
Laurirace makes an excellent point wrt to detomidine (Dormosedan).
Xylazine (Rompun) Will also drop human blood pressure through the floor in ridiculously small amounts.
Which is why I almost never dispense either one.[/QUOTE]
Why in the world would a vet dispense these drugs to a horse owner?? who could possibly by pure accident get poked with needle,or get the dormosedan gel on them.
My vet will not dispense these drugs,he gives it himself period. IV injections i gave were antibiotics.
Good to know about the Dormosedan in humans! Will be extra careful now for sure.
I have practiced enough inserting the needle and taking the blood out that I feel totally comfortable getting the needle in the right place. In fact it is so easy and so “no big deal” that’s what kind of had me worried. Wanted to make sure it was quite normal for non-vets to feel that way and that I wasn’t about to try something crazy with my horse that could kill him.
Walked through the process with vet again today for re-checking blood throughout and injecting slowly, and also telltale signs that the needle might be inserted incorrectly and how to reposition. That hasn’t been an issue at all in practice.
I really don’t have a lot of concern doing my own horse. BO asked if I was comfortable doing another boarder’s horse and I declined. The liability if something does go wrong is just too much risk for me to take.
I won’t do IV injections and don’t want to learn how. Many years ago a vet was sedating my horse and went through the vein into the artery (I believe that is how it went) and the horse went up over backwards and seized for what seemed like several minutes. I may have only been seconds in real time, I don’t know. But it seemed like forever and the horse was really banged up after the fact. So I guess I am one of the ones with a horror story about it. After seeing that happen I decided I would never want to try it myself.
I don’t even like to do IM injections on horses although I can do people just fine (I used to be a nurse).
[QUOTE=BigMama1;8781912]
Good to know about the Dormosedan in humans! Will be extra careful now for sure.
I have practiced enough inserting the needle and taking the blood out that I feel totally comfortable getting the needle in the right place. In fact it is so easy and so “no big deal” that’s what kind of had me worried. Wanted to make sure it was quite normal for non-vets to feel that way and that I wasn’t about to try something crazy with my horse that could kill him.
Walked through the process with vet again today for re-checking blood throughout and injecting slowly, and also telltale signs that the needle might be inserted incorrectly and how to reposition. That hasn’t been an issue at all in practice.
I really don’t have a lot of concern doing my own horse. BO asked if I was comfortable doing another boarder’s horse and I declined. The liability if something does go wrong is just too much risk for me to take.[/QUOTE]
I had the same experience as you; I learned how to give IV meds to my horse so I could sedate him during rehab because he was a lunatic to ride and turnout. Our groom showed me how, and then I took over. I probably ended up giving over 100 shots during the course of our rehab. It was never a big deal to me, but some barnmates were definitely horrified that I did it myself. For whatever reason I figured as long as I was appropriately cautious with needle placement and didn’t act like a Steakhouse cook with a meat thermometer we would be fine, and we were. My horse and I were both very calm about it, which helped.
That being said, I was giving either Ace or sedi-vet, which are water soluble and so I was told wouldn’t cause a problem if I accidentally injetcted it outside of a vein. I might have been more nervous if it was something more likely to cause a reaction if administered incorrectly, like bute. My trainer knows I know how to give an IV shot, but she would never ask me to poke any horse but my own with a needle due to the sheer liability of it.
[QUOTE=tazycat;8781907]
Why in the world would a vet dispense these drugs to a horse owner?? who could possibly by pure accident get poked with needle,or get the dormosedan gel on them.
My vet will not dispense these drugs,he gives it himself period. IV injections i gave were antibiotics.[/QUOTE]
I try to never say never.
There have been fewer than I can count on one hand in ~30 years, though.
Nope. I’m too afraid. I may have to learn should we ever have the horses on our own property, but for now I’d rather not. Too many things could go wrong. IM I will do if I have to.
[QUOTE=BigMama1;8780497]
My vet has been encouraging me for a while to just get the meds from him and do the injections myself. He has shown me how several times and I have practiced drawing blood out, though haven’t yet injected anything in. It seems easy as pie so far and no big deal, but I guess I’m just looking for reassurance that other non-vets have done this and not killed their ponies :lol:[/QUOTE]
Unless your vet likes to live recklessly with his career and license, he wouldn’t even broach the subject if you weren’t capable.
Yes, there is a risk. But I also believe people spin that risk into an irrational fear. With proper training, anyone can learn to do IV injections. It’s a good skill to have; it’s just a matter of education and practice.
While there has been a lot of discussion about the risks of detomidine, the one “good” thing about sedation is at least the volume is small. Pushing something like 12cc of banamine is a little more nerve-racking for those inexperienced in venopuncture IMO. More time for the needle to become repositioned when the volume is greater.
[QUOTE=tazycat;8781907]
Why in the world would a vet dispense these drugs to a horse owner?? who could possibly by pure accident get poked with needle,or get the dormosedan gel on them.
My vet will not dispense these drugs,he gives it himself period. IV injections i gave were antibiotics.[/QUOTE]
I’ve worked in plenty of places where vet only drugs were prescribed by the vet and then used to medicate by non-vet staff.
Stables had sedatives, vit supplements and all manner of other things on hand. Personally I’m more worried about people using antibiotics than sedation. My current agistment owner has been giving penicillin for the last fifty years (or so he says) but had no idea that he needed to draw back when injecting it IM. The doses given are crazy high, courses are generally not completed and unregulated antibiotic use is only asking for resistance problems.
In factory farming it is very common for staff to be using (often nasty to people) drugs that need a vets prescription. As long as correct handling is followed by staff that are well trained it’s not big deal and I’m saying that as someone who kissed her fertility goodbye after being needle sticked by a follow workmate (who wasn’t following procedure) with hormones.
Untrained peeps handling drugs are scary, people who have good training, know the risks and are well versed in the ins and outs of what they are dispensing are not an issue. The vets I worked with on the factory farms had plenty of book knowledge and knew the drugs but often lacked the ability to handle an animal which wasn’t “tame”. Much better to get the people who worked with them day in and out to do the actual injecting, generally we could do it much quicker, with less stress and on the first attempt. We could also do it on the days when there wasn’t a vet on site.
Too many things could go wrong for me to want to add that practice to my repertoire. Fortunately my three are good with oral sedation when absolutely necessary so I don’t feel pressured.
[QUOTE=cayuse;8781975]
I won’t do IV injections and don’t want to learn how. Many years ago a vet was sedating my horse and went through the vein into the artery (I believe that is how it went) and the horse went up over backwards and seized for what seemed like several minutes. I may have only been seconds in real time, I don’t know. But it seemed like forever and the horse was really banged up after the fact. So I guess I am one of the ones with a horror story about it. After seeing that happen I decided I would never want to try it myself.
I don’t even like to do IM injections on horses although I can do people just fine (I used to be a nurse).[/QUOTE]
Same here.
~20 yrs ago, I was a young employee of a vet clinic, and was being taught to give IV injections to horses. My OTTB needed sedated for surgery/debridement on his cannons. I was holding, vet was sedating and teaching me. She hit the carotid and we almost lost him… Vet had been in equine practice for 25+ years, and I figured if SHE could make a mistake… pretty much killed my desire for ever doing IV injections on horses. IV injection on dogs and cats, easy peesy, can do them singlehandedly without anyone holding the animal.
I consider myself skilled at IV injections… In mice and rats. On my horse? I can do it, I greatly prefer not too. Some combination of the much bigger needle and the fact that it is MY horse changes everything. When my guy needed ace for rehab I allowed for extra time to allow for IM dosing. IV shots were only necessary a handful of times.
Banamine and Ace I have on hand for emergencies. I can give them IV if I need to, and I will. But the vet is usually 10 mins or less away and my first call is going to be them. Very very fortunate to board between the vets house and the clinic. Didn’t think of that when barn hunting, but now that I’ve realized it, amazing perk.
Done literally thousands and thousands of them with no touch wood problems thus far
On my own horses and on others. Sometimes if the vet is an hour or more away and the horses HAS to have banamine now, there really is no other choice in the matter. I get the owners okay in writing if possible and stick it in the vein and that’s it
The toughest ones I find are the foals. The vein is SO tiny, you are in and through and out of that sucker in the blink of an eye so you have to really concentrate to feel the tiny little prick as you go into it, pull back and verify you are in there and inject
I also pull back partway through to ensure I am still in there and sometimes at the end as well and yes - there is a definite difference in the colour of the blood in the vein as opposed to the artery
I think the biggest assurance is getting the angle of injection right - straight through and you can have problems. Upwards or downwards and you are generally fine
But having said all that an Olympic level rider and trainer in our area injected some Bute into his Olympic horse and went through and hit the artery instead and as he was still injecting she dropped to the ground like a sack of cement as it hit her heart. I guess very fortunately he hadn’t injected the full dose yet, she did recover fully no worse for wear and life went on but he was very experienced and knew 100% what he was doing. It was just “one of those things” that could happen to any of us
And laurierace - didnt know that about Dormo. Good to know. Will be extra cautious when handling that going forward. It was the drug of choice combined usually with some Torb to give to some mares that were being live covered when I had my TB stallion here to keep everyone and everything safe and in 1 piece through the process …
Dpnds upon what’s in the syringe. Some injectables can make venous blood appear nice and bright, like arterial blood.
Like many others here, IV injections have been part of my life for many decades. I guess it is something that one gets accustomed to, if necessary. I think it is a skill that all horsemen SHOULD acquire, one day, it may save a horse’s life if you can do this. Learn how. When you are remote, and no vet can attend, and time is of the essence, YOU may be the only chance a horse has.
Yes, there is risk. Risk is inherent in many things, especially things pertaining to horses. Learn how, and accept the risk. Learn what to do if things go wrong… they go wrong for everyone every now and again, vets included. Giving penicillin IM tends to be done by some who are frightened to do IV shots, and the risk of problems is much higher, IMO. These are simple enough skills to learn. Get your vet to show you how, then practice with a drug less likely to do severe damage if something goes wrong.
Have had horses and boarders for many years but I decided early on I would never attempt IV injections. Isn’t there a possibility of killing your horse if there is a tiny air bubble in the syringe or is that just a myth?
Also, how can you develop this skill without stabbing your horses numerous times.?
[QUOTE=Cat Tap;8791853]
Have had horses and boarders for many years but I decided early on I would never attempt IV injections. Isn’t there a possibility of killing your horse if there is a tiny air bubble in the syringe or is that just a myth?
Also, how can you develop this skill without stabbing your horses numerous times.?[/QUOTE]
It is sensible to avoid giving IV meds to a horse you don’t own, unless you’re licensed in some capacity.
It is remotely possible that a small bubble might hit just the right spot to cause death, but you probably have a better chance of winning the lottery.
Even in cases where a jugular catheter becomes disconnected, and a large volume of air enters, horses survive, albeit after some complications.
As for learning without repeatedly harpooning your horse, first become well-acquainted with locating the jugular vein.
I’ve been doing IV shots on my own horses for a very, very long time. I’ve learned to put in catheters- although, I hate doing it, and I am quite sure that being able to administer the right sedatives and pain meds has saved me a huge amount of money in Vet bills, but moreover, I’ve been able to get the drugs into the horse faster- which can make a huge difference.
I also have a laundry list of drugs here that most Vets wouldn’t dispense to clients, unless they knew for sure what they were dealing with. I don’t think I have ever given anyone reason to doubt that I could make a judgment call, and use the drugs appropriately.
That said, I don’t stick other peoples horses off of my farm. I had a situation recently where I went to a friends farm, and they had a colic that they were walking, and the Vet had asked them to administer Banamine IV, and was on the way. My friend was afraid to stick the horse. I put the needle in for her, drew back to see where I was, and had her finish the shot. A fine line, certainly, but she was nervous, and needed the help.
In addition to the obvious issue of administering something that isn’t appropriate, there is the huge issue of not administering it correctly. I take my horses health care very seriously, and think carefully every time I do any shot- and post particularly IVs.
I do my own, but I haven’t done anything like IV baytril or Oxitet which is about 30cc worth of meds. For sedation it’s not difficult. My vet taught me to do it higher up so that the carotid is further away from where you are poking. If the blood rushes into the needle, you hit an artery. if you have to draw to get the blood, you are in a vein. If your horse is good about IV shots, you should be able to do it yourself. Just keep his head up for a few minutes after so you don’t get a bubble on his vein. It just takes repetition to get comfortable with it. I started on a mare that I had to sedate to rehab under saddle. Not getting killed was my motivation. Your vet can also give you saline to practice with.
It is a good skill to have for a colic emergency or heaven forbid a trailering accident.
As a small animal vet tech I honed my phleb skills on wee kittens. As someone mentioned upthread, a horse is like hitting a garden hose by comparison.
There are people who simply seem to have a knack for it. Whether it’s sense of touch or something else I do not know. I worked with one vet in particular who was amazing at it, and I’ve worked with others who aren’t so gifted.
