Don Frederico- temperament

[madamlb]

Just wondering what your experiences are with Don Fredericos?

Mine is 16 months old and he’s driving me insane. It might all be my fault, I mean a lot of it is nurture and I wrote a big thing here and decided to delete it. The stallion doesn’t need to be associated with my colt’s particular issues.

I will say mine is stunning to look at. Liver chestnut, stunning head, wonderful shoulder and amazing behind. Improving all the time in his movement which is very balanced and elastic. And he is very, very arrogant. He is absolutely huge for his age, and he thinks he’s pretty wonderful. He can be very easy and sweet but he can also have a bit of a dirty streak and does not like it when he doesn’t get his way.

He’s off to have some boot camp with my trainer because we need some distance from one another and I want her opinion of him. But just wondering what other people’s experiences are with them?

What’s the temp like? And the talent? I reckon my fellow is going to be enormously talented, if we can ever channel it in right direction!!

[stolensilver]

Don Freds do have a reputation for being difficult. Sorry if you didn’t want to hear that. The joke in Germany is that there is one price for backing a horse, and double if the horse is by Sandro Hit or Don Frederico. They are talented though and every horse is an individual. I think you’re being very wise getting him to learn some manners while he’s still young.

[madamlb]

In what way are they supposed to be difficult?

I don’t mind hearing it at all, my gelding was a premie and was overhandled as a result, if I could take it back I would but it was medically necessary, and I think that’s part of his problem. He is way too comfortable with people, and he has a bit of a streak that comes out when he gets told off. And he’s about 15.2hh already. So yes, I will do whatever it takes in order to make him a respectful and useful equine citizen, and I reckon my trainer will have it sorted pretty quickly.

I can accept I’m partly to blame, his dam has a phenomenal temperament (and is Rubinstein/Donnerhall lines) so the main question mark remains Don Frederico. It is SO hard to get a good gage on temperament when you are using frozen semen

[Cartier]

I suspect that you will hear all sorts of things about stallions and stallion lines, being this or that. I think a lot of it is pure baloney. As the OP alluded to, so much depends on what the owners do, from day one. For example, years ago we were told by those “in the know” that Lord Sinclair would produce difficult horses (one registry “expert” even took the time to call us and try to steer us away, to a stallion that it turned out later she owned). We ignored the “experts” and bred to Lord Sinclair twice. LOVE both offspring.

The one, Lord Baltimore – was Robin Brueckmann’s ride for a few years. Robin is a para Olympic rider for the USA. She rode without stirrups, and often used metal braces to assist her. Whatever else you could say about Timmy (a.k.a. Lord Baltimore) he was a lamb around Robin. She trained him to back out of a trailer (at horse shows) by simply releasing the butt bar and tugging on his tail. He was trained to stand “naked” by the side of the trailer while Robin took her time to tack him up. She even trained him to pee on command when she whistled. Robin had him so responsive to her, so gentle and kind, and so laid back, that in the end, you could argue that he did not have enough forward, and may even have come to hate his job. Whatever was the case, he was willing to accept what she taught him, and every bit of it was about self-restraint. No horse with at genetically “bad temperament” would have done what Timmy did for Robin. For the “know-it-alls” with all the info on what Lord Sinclair would produce, they could not have been more wrong.

While I think that some behaviors traits have a genetic component, I think that a good deal of a horse’s behavior is grounded in how we humans interact with them. When we fail to understand their language and their needs, they respond, and sometimes that response is difficult to deal with… but the horse is not innately this or that.

Currently we have a Sandro Hit stallion - Sandro D. Sandro D is coming seven. I am not saying that he walks on water, but he lives in a barn /farm with mares, and is a gentleman, very sensitive, and completely devoted to his trainer. He works on a snaffle, never has a chain on his nose, stands politely in cross ties, and in the wash stall, never calls out or drops out…and is generally about a good as a boy could be. Here are some photos and video of Sandro D at his first show, where he was Grand Champion (not a big deal, other than that he managed the show beautifully, which was the point for us). http://logresfarmpintowarmbloods.com/?page_id=12

We had Sandro D home with us for the first five years… he was always a gentleman… always willing to learn, always looking for ways to interact with us. At times he might get an idea that he was going to do this or that, but in the end he always came around to what we were asking of him. If anything, we had to adjust what we were asking, to a language that he understood.

[DownYonder]

The joke in Germany is that there is one price for backing a horse, and double if the horse is by Sandro Hit or Don Frederico
.

I have actually heard it as one price for backing, and double for backing one by Don Frederico, Gribaldi, or Jazz. OTOH, I know some trainers who LOVE getting in Sandro Hit offspring for backing (although are skeptical about Stedinger offspring).

OP - I assume since you refer to your horse as “colt”, he is still intact. If he is arrogant now - and uses his size to get his way - just think what he will be like when his hormones REALLY get flowing. Have you considered gelding him? You might find he becomes much milder in temperament and easier to deal with.

[madamlb]

Sorry- he is not a colt, he was gelded at four months. Wish I could do it again sometimes!!

I felt quite bad even making the topic because I don’t like the idea of blaming the stallion for everything, and people will say anything- I’ve heard how hot and horrible and terrible to deal with and for professionals only the sires of my other horses all are on occasion, including my Rubinstein line girl who is, like most Rubinsteins, an angel. I think people just like to cause mischief and spread rumours sometimes.

But the reason I did decide to ask is that I honestly don’t know. Certainly, I’ve seen all the pictures and watched loads of videos, but I don’t know whether there is actually something intrinsically in my Don Fred that makes him a bit more difficult, or if it’s just his age/his training/his dam/himself. I am thrilled with him in many other ways and most of the time he’s a sweetie and wouldn’t necessarily say no to another Don Frederico. But I had a tough day with him and was wondering whether anyone else had similar experiences with their Don Freds.

[lolita1]

I don’t think you are blaming the stallion often in my opinion how they are can be interesting and sometimes challenging. Not often you get one or the other personality in a foal. I don’t believe in stereotypes. My filly SD Grandsire is interesting … and I really like her questioning nature she isn’t nasty, very rarely naughty and is questioning and can get oddly worried. I don’t rush and if I get resistance I take a step back and restart. Works for us both I too will send to a trainer eventually as I am a big believer in that as well.

Best of luck they are all different.

[HickoryHill]

The consensus on a German forum, that I often read, is that Don Frederico’s temperament is difficult and explosive but he does not necessarily pass it on. Some can be a handful, others are super easy. They usually are very good movers.
I can relate to madamlb problems. My 2-year-old Dacaprio filly can be a total jerk when she doesn’t want to do something. She’s 16h already and when she starts rearing and striking it’s not for the faint of heart.
I think boot camp is the way to go.

[Donella]

A mare I used to own had three DF’s, two for me and one for the man I bought her from. The oldest I had was a real handful, very opinionated and dominant. At a few weeks old she went after her breeder with her ears back! She was also very difficult to back, was a bucker and just poor rideability in general. The one that was born at our place had a few “moments” but we set her in line and she was much better after that, I actually really liked her a lot, super people oriented and full of personality. Unfortunately she broke her leg as a yearling and had to be PTS

When I was getting my three year old filly started I talked to quite a few other people who had DF’s and pretty much all of them had the same things to say about theirs to varying degrees.

That being said, mine were nice movers and good looking horses. Every time I look through the auction lists I always end up liking the DF’s, they usually seem to move super well , have good hind ends ect. One cannot dispute that he is an exceptional sire but I wouldn’t breed to him to produce anything but a horse for a pro.

[rideagoldenpony]

Not knowing a whit about any of the breeding, so completely looking in from the outside – I would say you’re dealing with a case of over handling, pure and simple.

I believe it is hard to overcome, however, but perhaps your trainer can give him the discipline he needs and at least improve the situation.

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;6448352]
Not knowing a whit about any of the breeding, so completely looking in from the outside – I would say you’re dealing with a case of over handling, pure and simple.

I believe it is hard to overcome, however, but perhaps your trainer can give him the discipline he needs and at least improve the situation.[/QUOTE]

Thank you !!!

One of the most successful stallion rearers of the last years is especially searching for Don Frederico offspring.

I have not heard that cited saying in Germany.

I can add that I think the DFs are pretty intelligent and need a person that is consistant in handling, consequent and pretty streight to the point. They test you and if they feel they are the ones who rule the world because the people dealing with them do not realise that they will be for sure the leader where other horses may just act in the same way and would not take advantage of their person. That does not mean they need bootcamp as I would undertsand that word, but a person that knows hows to deal with a horse in a normal way (but more seldom to be found anymore…)

Hope I could express it well enough.

(I have experience used him in breeding and rode one myself.)

[houserabbitz]

I agree with what Donella and Alexandra said. I have a DF mare (out of a Warkant dam), who is sensitive and not always in the good way, and very intelligent. She pushes back (as in, says “no”), pins her ears, and she is argumentative. Like Alexandra mentioned she needs consistent, straight forward handling, and she will test you. She can be very nice on the ground and easy to deal with when she wants to be, and she does like people and attention. Ammy friendly under saddle, I would say no. She is a lovely mover and Elite Eligible, but because of her temperament, I opted not to breed her this year. I think she has potential to be a superstar undersaddle, but she is not for the average ammy rider/handler, IMO.

[madamlb]

Mine is argumentative. He is very, very sweet and very people oriented. Until you ask him to do something he doesn’t want to do. Like back up and get out of your space. 50% of the time he will acquiesce, the other 50% he is not afraid to pin his ears and would I think rear and strike. He also takes things out on the filly he lives with if he doesn’t get his way, he’ll go and bite her to show his displeasure.

So by ‘boot camp’ I mean he will go spend a couple of weeks with my trainer who is exceptional, and she will reinforce ground manners and chain of command. He has absolutely been overhandled and it’s my fault, I wouldn’t do it again, but he was very, very sick as a foal and in many ways it was unavoidable as he required a lot of medical attention and had to be kept inside for the first few weeks.

Hopefully we’ll get him sorted out. I’d like to keep him, as I think he’s going to be one hell of a horse, but he’s going to be huge (probably 17hh) and he might end up being too much for me, we’ll see. I’m quite petite and I’m only twenty, so I do try my best but obviously I make lots of mistakes too! I’m proud of him as the first horse I’ve bred but looking back I would have done some things differently!! Thanks everyone for your knowledgeable and understanding responses, I love coming to this forum

[Sunnydays]

In addition to the many comments above … there are many DFs doing extremely well competitively.
He is not consistent in size … and I have a (tiny) friend who purchased a 3 yo chestnut mare by Don Frederico last summer. The mare is about 15.2 h - and she is lovely. She’ll look at something new, process it, and move forward. Good gaits, feminine type, eager to please. Don’t know the damline - but obviously, a good nick.

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=Sunnydays;6448966]
In addition to the many comments above … there are many DFs doing extremely well competitively.
He is not consistent in size … and I have a (tiny) friend who purchased a 3 yo chestnut mare by Don Frederico last summer. The mare is about 15.2 h - and she is lovely. She’ll look at something new, process it, and move forward. Good gaits, feminine type, eager to please. Don’t know the damline - but obviously, a good nick.[/QUOTE]
Mine is 1,62m out of a much taller mare. What is that in hands ? I always forget…

And to the OP: It is good if they can sort him out, but what about you ? Are you also going there to be sorted out ? I know tough question, but what I mean are you going to work on your behaviour, so that he does not get a chance to overrule you again ?

I have the experience with mine that if you do not pay attention to the small things she gets pretty fast to a point where you have to be pretty strict. She is not mean, does not put her ears back so such, but e.g. to lead her back from the field into the barn was something that not a lot of people could do. She knew that going back means food. And hence she wanted to be fast. Faster than you so she started pulling on bad days trying to canter and bucking next to you. But if you already “told” her as soon as you caught her that you are the one who goes in front and defines the speed - different picture. my friend is a riding teacher and her students wanted to hepl her get the horses in, but she never gave them my mare bringing them in. Bringing them out she was a lam and can be lead by any idiot.
She learned to back and use her legs upon telling her with a whip by signing to the leg in a second. She also learned how do do it between ground poles and around a 90 degree “corner” in a second. Very easy and even inexperienced people can do those kind of tasks with her.
Now being a mum there are not really situations where you need to be strict - she has now a very easy life hanging out 24/7 and only seldom trips to the barn for insemination, treatment etc. Her colt of this year is really perfect in temp and charakter.

[madamlb]

I’ve noticed the size differences in the DFs I’ve seen actually. Mine is massive, we’re pretty sure he’ll get to 17hh and he’s out of a 16.1hh mare! But I have seen them 15.2-3hh too.

Alexandra, good question. I certainly will try my best and am always on a quest to improve my handling and leadership. I will absolutely be working my best to get the leadership issue sorted out- and have been in my daily interaction with him. He may still be too big and too opinionated for me in which case I’ll sell him once he’s under saddle. On a day to day basis he is a lovely horse to deal with, but if you push the boundaries then the nasty comes out a bit. It’s my own fault for calling him Mr Darcy, of course he’s opinionated and arrogant

It’s interesting the contrast between him and my Sir Donnerhall filly, she’s a lot more sensitive and I suppose ‘spooky’ but she trusts me down to the ground and will really try anything so long as I say it’s okay, but at the moment (she’s only 9 months) she is very wary of anyone but me unless I am reassuring her that they are okay. It’s a tricky personality in some ways, but I find it actually a lot easier to deal with and channel than the Don Frederico’s bold and boisterous personality.

[madamlb]

I’m going to bump this thread after two years because my Don Frederico gelding is now about to turn three and has spent the last two weeks at the breakers …

… and has exceeded every expectation. He has been terrific. He is confident, he is bold, he listens, he is a beautiful mover (better under saddle than on the ground actually) he is very balanced, he has a good attitude towards all the new stuff coming at him.

His nervous response is still to get pushy but that is getting less and less and is easy enough to deal with.

So far he is a little superstar. I was so worried about all the negative reports of Don Frederico children but happy to go on the record and say at this point my little guy is terrific. He is 16.1hh at nearly three so I expect he will finish up around 16.2hhish which is great.

I told my trainer the old story about the one price for horses double for Sandro Hit or Don Frederico,well she is breaking two warmbloods at the moment along with all her thoroughbreds and one is a Sandro Hit and the other is my Don Frederico. Mine apparently has no real spook, hasn’t even thought about bucking and is doing amazingly, the Sandro Hit isn’t that difficult either.

Just my personal experiences so far, but I am very pleased with my little Don Fred (Rubinstein/Ramino/Donnerhall dam)

[stoicfish]

Thanks for the update.
I think Alex. had it right when she said the smart ones are more likely to push their boundaries. I think they make better horses if you can get them on the right track, but that same horse could go south if handled wrong, either spoiled or mistreated and often I think that is the case with many rumors.
Give yourself a pat for a job well done and good luck with your boy.

[alexandra]

Happy to hear that ! Good luck for your further way down the road.
My mare did not catch last year so she is back under saddle with a friend of mine. She never even tries to test her (Argh), but Liz is also very very easy and laid back and has not yet told my mare that she is supposed to work, get on her hindlegs and so on. At the Moment the two are just playing with trailriding etc., so I wonder what will happen when Liz starts working her a bit more

[4wdNstraight]

I wanted to chime in with my experiences as well. I have a 6 year old DF out of a Wesley dam. I am an experienced Amateur, and bought her at 2. She is small-15.3 and opinionated but has progressed nicely. She was a pill as a youngster, but is getting so fun as the work gets more difficult. She is very dominant and I agree wholeheartedly to what Alexandra said :

I can add that I think the DFs are pretty intelligent and need a person that is consistant in handling, consequent and pretty streight to the point. They test you and if they feel they are the ones who rule the world because the people dealing with them do not realise that they will be for sure the leader where other horses may just act in the same way and would not take advantage of their person. That does not mean they need bootcamp as I would undertsand that word, but a person that knows hows to deal with a horse in a normal way (but more seldom to be found anymore…)

She is willful, but I started her myself and have done most of the riding myself. I think that this mare isn’t the easiest, but I love love love riding her! She certainly doesn’t serve it up on a platter if you know what I mean! I keep toying with breeding her, but am having fun riding her right now. Any ideas?