Donkey's Tongue Over the Bit

I’m just starting to train my small standard donkey to drive. I should mention that I’ve been driving my own team of draft horses for 9 years now. The donkey was very good about having the harness put on. I am just in the preliminary stages of ground driving her.

At the moment I am using a bitting strap rather than the full bridle with blinkers. I am using a smooth, mullen mouthed Liverpool bit with the lines on the ring. The donkey has a really short mouth, and is everlastingly getting her tongue over the bit. I can tighten the bitting strap up another inch, if necessary, but don’t want to hurt the corners of her mouth. The other bit I have in her size is a full cheek snaffle, of the riding type. I’ve tried her with that, but her mouth was open a lot. I think the joint in the snaffle bothered her. Suggestions?

Has donkey worn a bit except in lessons? If not, I would back up, put a broken mouth bit with ring sides on for eating meals with. Since you say donkey does not like a 2-part mouth, I would try a 3-part bit, with French link bean as the center part. Sometimes an equine with a low palate finds the multiple pieces easier to deal with.

I would just hang bit on a headstall, make sure the mouth is not low enough to clank on teeth. Might mean she needs a few wrinkles at the lip corners. Try for not tight, not loose, in fit. She has room to move it about in her mouth with her tongue. Let her wear it for eating grain and hay, an hour or two a day, over a week or more to learn how to manage the mouthpiece and food, not getting excited about being bitted, no chomping bit all the time.

Some fruit rollups on the bit will encourage easy bridling, press them tightly with your hand after wrapping mouthpiece to stay in place. Animal gets busy mouthing the bit, almost every animal LOVES the reward when you hold out the bit. Ours are like baby birds, mouth open, nose forward, for EASY bridling. Fruit-by-the-foot or Fruit Rollups on the mouthpiece are so much less messy than honey or molasses, lasts about 10 minutes of slurping and tongue play.

I would continue her driving stuff if you are doing training now. Goal is an animal who does not fuss with the bit in work or just hanging out, nothing about a bit and bridle to get excited about, unless it is food that comes with bridling in the stall!

When she is done with the eating and wearing bit time, I would work on harness bit fit in her mouth. We have very short lipped horses, shallow mouth they call it. You have to snug up the bits for work or the mouthpiece WILL be clanking them in the front teeth. Husband calls it “fitting for grins”, because they do have several wrinkles in the lip corners, “grinning” when bridled up. Just a different fit than other horses have.

For her tongue over issue, I would fit her bit just one hole looser than you prefer. This gives her room to work with, so she can put her tongue BACK UNDER if she doesn’t like the feel! I really advise against stopping to “fix the tongue” because smart animals QUICKLY realize you will stop if the tongue is flapping in the wind and do it A LOT! We had one horse who would flap his tongue when he wanted to rest. Took a number of “tongue fixing” before we caught on, and that was the LAST time we stopped for tongue hanging out. You know he only tried that once or twice again, then NEVER. You can’t stop to fix tongue in a class or competition, animal must DEAL WITH IT. Husband said “he got tongue over, he can get it back under by himself” and kept going. Horse fixed it pretty quick, no reward.

We have never found that tightening bit up high, to be of any help in keeping tongue under. Does make it harder for HORSE to fix his tongue problem himself though! So ignore tongue over while working animal, maybe fix it when you get ready to unharness with you on the ground, so animal does not think trick is rewarded. Maybe fix tongue after a few minutes of whoa and stand still practice, animal has already stood for a bit, not a reward or action/reaction thing to fussing or tongue flapping. Donkey is smart, they catch on FAST when you react wrongly.

Thanks, goodhors. I’m using a bitting strap because I started out just attaching the bit to her halter, and I found that I couldn’t adjust the bit to the proper height that way. I will have to see if I can find a small French link for her. 4" bits are not easy to come by, here, nor even to find by mail order.

She takes the bit easily enough, but I haven’t had it on her while she’s eating. I will try that. And I guess I have made an error in stopping to fix the tongue-over. I fixed it 4 or 5 times last evening. Stop (not necessarily when I ask her to, either) seems to be her favourite thing :lol: . I will refrain from fixing tongue-over from now on.

I have no idea what prior training she has had. I bought her from a dealer when she was 9, and had no history on her. She is now 12.

FWIT it took me a long time to find the right bit for two of my horses. I start everything in a French Link by default.

I ended up acquiring a butterfly glory bit that ended all bitting problems for one horse. She has a very sensitive mouth and you could almost see her sigh when that bit went in.

The other problem horse has stayed in a French Link, but her bit has be be adjusted “just so” or she’s not happy. (I’m threatening to tape other all other holes in her bridle, so I don’t accidentally move it to the wrong hole after cleaning the bridle.)

The shape of a horse’s mouth dictates the type of bit they like. In spite of a lot of reading … I still have to experiment. But the two mouth piece styles that seem to work for me in most horses are a French Link or some type of arched mouth piece.

Hope this helps!

horsegeeks, I switched one of my draft mares from a straight Liverpool to a French link butterfly bit, and like you, I could almost hear her sigh in relief! I’ll look around and see if I can find something similar for the donkey. It can get expensive, trying bit after bit.

I’ll pose one caution to using GH method of introducing the bit using fruit roll-ups
Tricia had seen this somewhere and decided to try it on our boys, who need to learn to drop their heads to a reachable height for bridling

THe problem came because they REALLY REALLY liked the fruit roll-ups and started sucking on the bits, paying absolutely NO attention to ANYTHING else - trying to drain every last atom of the roll-ups off the bit
AND they never quite believed that it was actually done
And this was after only ONE TIME using the roll-ups

They are such treat mavens . . .
We only give them anything AFTER all work is DONE or their attention is gone for the day

As far as trying new bits . . . is there anyone near you that you could borrow a new bit from to try before you buy??
I realize its harder when you have a not common size - we have 6 1/2 inch bits and those are not the easiest to find

Drive NJ, I am sorry to hear about your boys and the fruit rollups! I have not had any horses that were quite so food motivated!! They enjoyed the flavor, but are not pushy about it, and quit licking the mouthpiece after the 10 minutes it takes to salivate the fruit to juice.

The new heifer is VERY food motivated and it is an eye opener! Even scared, she will see the treats and GO FORWARD to get them. Took less than 3 minutes to load her the first time in at our house. She now loads up the ramp beside you, into the horse trailer as nice as the horses!! Comes when called usually at a canter. She was rather wild and previously unhandled until we got her as a yearling in January. Treats, are a big deal to cows too.

I want to suggest to draftdriver that she look hard at the french link with butterfly sides before use or purchase. This actually a CURB bit in action, NOT action of direct pull like any ring sided bit. With the several joints in mouthpiece, Butterfly sides (or any design of shank bit) can have a severe pinching effect when the curb chain and leverage come into effect as reins are pulled. Any jointed mouthpiece with curb sides, leverage, will fold and pinch the jaw when reins are pulled. Action in the mouth can be far from what you want for the animal.

If you do want to move up to a curb bit, and most of us do in driving, I think a solid mouth would be kinder to the animal. The bit action then is just a pivot, no folding or pinching with rein pull, and you still can use gentle setting for reins. Some animals like a Mullen mouth, gives tongue relief, as do the low port bits, not hit above if her upper palate is low. The Glory bits were almost built for Morgan type horses who often have low palate with fat tongues, to make problems in bitting. I don’t care for how Glory bits hang, but lots of horses seem to go well in Glory bits.

Driving bits are expensive. But you can usually do a couple of things

  1. Beg bits from a friend
  2. Use riding bits for bitting (cheaper to experiment with mouth piece styles)

I’m bitting “problem pony” right now using a riding bit. I’m concerned about the mouth piece and how it affects her. When I’m sure I’ve found the right mouth piece, I’ll buy it in a driving style. I’ll use the riding bit when ground driving her too. I’ll only make the leap to the more expensive driving bit when she’s far enough along that I don’t think she’ll need to move to another bit.

This seems to be a very common problem with donkeys in particular. Time and patience…donkeys are not little long eared horses…they are much smarter :wink: and if you’ve only ever trained horses you can practically throw out the book and start over because they are different. My donkey will still throw his tongue over the bit if I haven’t driven him for awhile. I do stop and fix it and after a few times he gives up and keeps his tongue under the bit. I use a half cheek snaffle. It is the only bit I’ve ever used on him.

I totally agree with PRS. Donkeys and mules are a whole other
ball game.
My mini mule used to get his tongue over the bit and open his mouth constantly, although through it all he handles pretty well!

Now I drive him in a liverpool with a flash noseband I had made
for him.

draftdriver - I am having the same issues with my young jenny. I posted on here about her awhile ago, I’ll see if I can find the link.

The other day while re-fitting her bridle (hasn’t worn it all winter) I noticed that her bit (4 1/4’’ full cheek) looks to fit her well on the outside, but when I pull her lips back it seems really wide on her jaw, also she seemed to be having trouble fitting the mouth piece and the bit comfortably in her mouth.

My hypothesis now is that her jaw is narrow in proportion to her lips (at least compared to horses) causing what appears to be a proper sized bit to be too big in her mouth. I hope that made sense ! I am thinking about trying a mullen mouth or a french link, but I am going to have the dentist give her a once over before I start buying bits. As you said it gets expensive and when you need an odd size there aren’t many to be borrowed.

Here is the link http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246162

Oops, posted in the wrong thread…

Thanks for all the responses!

A question about French link butterfly bits. I put the lines on the ring. Am I mistaken in thinking that there is no curb action in this configuration?

I think I’ll e-mail my friends with minis and find out where they get their bits. My Jodi’s mouth is a tad larger than a mini’s, so I won’t likely be able to borrow, but you never know…
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I have found that donkeys have very fleshy tongues and shallow mouths. This means that for most thick bits, straight bar bits and single jointed bits all cause discomfort. Usually an arch mouthed bit works quite well with them unless sticking the tongue over the bit has become a habit.

Also donkey faces widen a lot sooner than ponies and often the top of a liverpool is too close and presses on the cheeks. A few seconds in a vice can bring them out a bit more to solve that problem.

[QUOTE=Daisydonk;4790627]
I have found that donkeys have very fleshy tongues and shallow mouths. This means that for most thick bits, straight bar bits and single jointed bits all cause discomfort. Usually an arch mouthed bit works quite well with them unless sticking the tongue over the bit has become a habit.

Also donkey faces widen a lot sooner than ponies and often the top of a liverpool is too close and presses on the cheeks. A few seconds in a vice can bring them out a bit more to solve that problem.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the insight ! Your observations make a lot of sense, any specific ideas other than the a curved mouth piece. I was looking for a eggbutt but all I could find where ones with the standard diameter mouth piece…

Draftdriver check out justforponies.com they seem to have some nice quality pony sized tack, I have bought some things for my donkey there that I am happy with.

Yeahhh ! I was just searching around for possible bits and found the bit return policy at Coachman’s Delight- they let you try bits and return them if they don’t work !!!
http://coachmansdelight.com/CGuidePage.asp?pg=GUI43&k=38