I just want to say that this is a really interesting thread.
It seems like the trend is that dogs are becoming incredibly difficult to deal with, as they are now peoples fur babies instead of, well, dogs. The new mentality classes them as equal to human beings, which I have to believe is relatively new thinking. I am in my forties and only in the last ten years or so have I ever heard anyone say it is ok for a dog to growl at a human being and make the decision about that persons acceptability in their environment themselves, rather than deferring to their owner.
I was visiting Mapleshade once when my son was eight and one of her dogs growled at him. He was simply walking thru the room. I made the comment that perhaps the dog simply wasnt used to kids? And she rolled her eyes at me and said look, he smells like a human, so no excuse… Dogs are supposed to get along in our world, not vice versa. She removed the dog immediately and it was not in his presence for the rest of the visit.
Times sure have changed. I cannot imagine a life where people are removed when a dog growls, or quite frankly, growling at a human being ok. It sounds terribly complicated and dangerous, allowing a dog to have a say so in such a thing. Does it really have to be this hard? Or are we just seeing more dogs with low trainability/bad temperaments and owners who want them to be fur babies instead of dogs?
Agree with chism, removing the trigger for the behavior is not the same as removing the dog (which is “punishment”), the dog’s reward is to be WITH the human, the punishment is to be removed from the presence of the human–basically it’s a time out. Time outs are effective, but like everything in dog training, require patience, persistence, timing, and consistency!
IOW, if the dog behaves in a certain way (that is unacceptable), he has to “go away” for a short period of time, you then offer him another chance to behave in a way that IS acceptable, if he does, he gets to stay with the humans (reward.)
A dog will repeat a behavior based on the consequences of that behavior.
Dogs shouldn’t be guarding things IN the house, unless you want the dog to believe that he owns (and is in charge) of everything in the house. Allow him on the furniture if you want (we have Whippets, and all the furniture is theirs to borrow, all day every day :lol:), BUT if you ask him to get off, he must comply with that command. (IOW, he doesn’t “own the furniture” either! As Kaytaz mentioned…)
The dominance theory has indeed been debunked in recent years, and I agree with everyone who says “being leaderly” around the dog is the key to earning respect and becoming the parental figure. That’s the hardest part to teach, because people tend to want to love on their dogs and feel that being “parental” is being mean to Fluffy, since Fluffy has such a cute face, and maybe he doesn’t want to do this right now?!? Fluffy then takes advantage of this nonexistent leadership by pushing the envelope (though Fluffy would rather have structure in his life, and a strong, calm, fair, confident and consistent leader), and chaos ensues. Simply setting and enforcing rules, expecting cooperation and respect, not allowing bad behavior to escalate by nipping it in the bud with a corrective “ugly noise” and a brief unpleasant consequence–IOW, interrupting and re-directing, the first principle of dog training–is the best way to shape dog behavior in a positive direction. If you do this consistently, you will eventually only need the ugly noise Theoretically, this should also work with children, though in this child centered world :rolleyes: I am seeing less and less of the “your behavior has consequences” model of parenting.
Patience when it comes to training ANYTHING is absolutely essential, yet seems to be in short supply these days; everyone wants a “quick fix”. When manipulating the behavior of carbon-based organisms, there is no such thing!
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;6179691]
I just want to say that this is a really interesting thread.
It seems like the trend is that dogs are becoming incredibly difficult to deal with, as they are now peoples fur babies instead of, well, dogs. The new mentality classes them as equal to human beings, which I have to believe is relatively new thinking. I am in my forties and only in the last ten years or so have I ever heard anyone say it is ok for a dog to growl at a human being and make the decision about that persons acceptability in their environment themselves, rather than deferring to their owner.
I was visiting Mapleshade once when my son was eight and one of her dogs growled at him. He was simply walking thru the room. I made the comment that perhaps the dog simply wasnt used to kids? And she rolled her eyes at me and said look, he smells like a human, so no excuse… Dogs are supposed to get along in our world, not vice versa. She removed the dog immediately and it was not in his presence for the rest of the visit.
Times sure have changed. I cannot imagine a life where people are removed when a dog growls, or quite frankly, growling at a human being ok. It sounds terribly complicated and dangerous, allowing a dog to have a say so in such a thing. Does it really have to be this hard? Or are we just seeing more dogs with low trainability/bad temperaments and owners who want them to be fur babies instead of dogs?[/QUOTE]
Yes, this!! ^^^ This is becoming more and more rampant…:sigh:
Times sure have changed. I cannot imagine a life where people are removed when a dog growls, or quite frankly, growling at a human being ok. It sounds terribly complicated and dangerous, allowing a dog to have a say so in such a thing. Does it really have to be this hard? Or are we just seeing more dogs with low trainability/bad temperaments and owners who want them to be fur babies instead of dogs?[/QUOTE]
So, this is a really good point! Is the removal of a dog, provided it is in a calm, quiet method, to a pleasant place for a dog, punishment? I’m thinking of my first Heeler, who I got at age 9. Sweet dog, great with adults and older kids, but just had a low threshold for the toddler age. My cousin’s son was going through a phase where he thought kicking dogs was funny. (And yes, that got stopped very quickly!)
BUT-I didn’t trust dear old Kate not to turn around and nip if she got kicked. And I don’t think it’s fair to expect that she wouldn’t react to being kicked, even though there are many animals that tolerate little kid/puppy abuse well.
So, the dog was removed from that situation. I didn’t yell at her, tell her she was bad, or do anything “negative”. But when she looked wary, I saw it as my job to let her get away from the kid. And maybe that’s the key- I saw when she looked uncomfortable, and took her away. I didn’t wait for a snarl, or nip to step in. To me, this is not a punishment, it’s a management of a situation. (Frankly, if it had been my child, I might have removed the kid and told him that if he can’t be nice, he can go be somewhere else! But that wasn’t my decision to make, so I protected the dog.)
[QUOTE=Kaytaz86;6179732]
So, this is a really good point! Is the removal of a dog, provided it is in a calm, quiet method, to a pleasant place for a dog, punishment? I’m thinking of my first Heeler, who I got at age 9. Sweet dog, great with adults and older kids, but just had a low threshold for the toddler age. My cousin’s son was going through a phase where he thought kicking dogs was funny. (And yes, that got stopped very quickly!)
BUT-I didn’t trust dear old Kate not to turn around and nip if she got kicked. And I don’t think it’s fair to expect that she wouldn’t react to being kicked, even though there are many animals that tolerate little kid/puppy abuse well.
So, the dog was removed from that situation. I didn’t yell at her, tell her she was bad, or do anything “negative”. But when she looked wary, I saw it as my job to let her get away from the kid. And maybe that’s the key- I saw when she looked uncomfortable, and took her away. I didn’t wait for a snarl, or nip to step in. To me, this is not a punishment, it’s a management of a situation. (Frankly, if it had been my child, I might have removed the kid and told him that if he can’t be nice, he can go be somewhere else! But that wasn’t my decision to make, so I protected the dog.)[/QUOTE]
In this situation, you did the only appropriate thing! (Management of the situation, exactly…) Stupid kid :mad: Or should I say stupid PARENTS!
Removing dog to a “safe place” (cozy crate filled with treats and chew toys) would be protecting dog, removing dog to “time out spot” (away from humans, with nothing to do and no distractions or good stuff) is a “punishment”.
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6179754]
In this situation, you did the only appropriate thing! (Management of the situation, exactly…) Stupid kid :mad: Or should I say stupid PARENTS!
Removing dog to a “safe place” (cozy crate filled with treats and chew toys) would be protecting dog, removing dog to “time out spot” (away from humans, with nothing to do and no distractions or good stuff) is a “punishment”.[/QUOTE]
:yes: I have a really touchy dog who is prone to snapping at people (or was when I got him anyway–I’ve had him for 5 or 6 years and he hasn’t snapped at anyone in at least 3 or 4 years). It is unacceptable in any situation, but I also think it is my responsibility to keep him out of situations that would trigger that. I don’t let him be around children because they scare and upset him. We’ve done a lot of work to desensitize him to them so that if it is unavoidable that he is around them (such as in a public place) he’s okay for a short time, but when I have friends with kids over to my house I’ll put him in his “safe” spot (my office, where he likes to sleep under my desk). It isn’t the same as time out, which I also use to train him–that involves being put in the boring guest bathroom. You can tell from his reactions that he feels very differently about the two situations.
And FWIW, this dog was punished for growling by his previous owners (who I knew, and saw them punish him for growling before they gave him to me) and I’ve never heard him growl in the years I’ve owned him, but I have seen him snap. He’s a really good example of why you shouldn’t punish for growling. He learns so fast that it only took a few tries for him to learn that growling just got punishment without solving the source of his discomfort, so he escalated to just snapping when he was upset about something. That would usually get him sent to another room or at least scare the person off from whatever they were doing, so they were essentially rewarding him for it. He had quite a few behavioral problems but the snapping was the reason I took him–they were going to put him down because he did it so often and they felt (probably correctly) it was only a matter of time before he really injured someone.
OTOH, I’ve been proactive in his training and have eliminated the snapping. It took a lot of time (although as soon as he came to live with me it became much less frequent) and I had to be really careful about the situations I put him in for the first couple of years, but he’s a great dog now. He even had to go to the vet yesterday as a drop-off (emergency call because he got kicked by a horse so hard I thought his leg was broken–fortunately not, but he needed stitches and pain medication). When I first got him there was no way I would let a vet handle him without me there, but yesterday he was great. They even stitched him without sedation, just a local anesthetic, and he was apparently incredibly well behaved. The vet who worked on him (not his normal vet, who was out all day) even said that he was the best-behaved dog he’d seen in awhile.
Growling at humans isn’t acceptable, but it also shouldn’t be simply punished. Proactive training that addresses the root problem is the way to go. Growling is just a symptom.
[QUOTE=chism;6179553]
This is what I thought you would say. We correct the dog, scold him and remove him. He does not do this much anymore because he does not want to be removed. But…I would not move the resource, whatever it is…I remove the dog.[/QUOTE]
and in your case this will work, but in the case of some dogs…if they are guarding and you put your hand on them, they will escalate. That is why you remove the person.
If the dog will not escalate, then you remove the dog.
The older dog and toddler. Well, I think if a child torments a dog they should be removed and both scolded. The problem is two fold, the child should NEVER be doing that, BUT because it happened, the dog must be informed that he is not allowed to have an opinion. It is unfair and it sucks for the dog. Better to not let that happen in the first place.
But in my example the child was older and not even near the dog. And yes, that dog got scolded and to use a harsh word, shunned by his person.
Cosmonster - do you really think you can keep people safe from your dog, always and forever?
I really wonder about the inherent temperaments of dogs these days and the measures people take to make their lives fit around them. I can not and will not do that. No dogs life is more valuable to me than a humans… But mostly, I dont understand how it has gotten so darn hard these days to have a dog, unless there is something inherently causing a problem in their breeding.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;6179897]
and in your case this will work, but in the case of some dogs…if they are guarding and you put your hand on them, they will escalate. That is why you remove the person.
If the dog will not escalate, then you remove the dog.[/QUOTE]
Some dogs…
Is this then a dog that will ever be safe around humans, if he escalates his guarding behaviour like that?
Is this then a dog that will ever be safe around humans, if he escalates his guarding behaviour like that?[/QUOTE]
no, what that means is that you find a different way to address the problem, rather than a confrontation that will lead to biting. That might be …removing the person.
The first objective here is to keep all human parties safe. If a dog is likely to respond to an action with escalation, you need to a) be safe b)not reward the behavior (and by reward I mean anything that will increase or make the behavior stronger). Then you begin to manage the environment so that you prevent that situation from happening while you train alternative behaviors or ways for the dog to respond.
So if husband is the object being guarded, and it’s safe to remove the dog, do so. If it is not (and I don’t know if it is or not which is why I chose this as my response), remove the human party. Then the dog might wear a 6 or 8 foot lead while in the house so that the humans can safely remove the dog from the couch.
In the case presented, if the human leaves, there is nothing left to guard.
Is this then a dog that will ever be safe around humans, if he escalates his guarding behaviour like that?[/QUOTE]
he might be safe or he might not be safe…I don’t know the dog. I’ve had dogs who seemed to breathe a huge sigh of relief when they found out we are clear and non threatening, became fine/nice dogs. I’ve had other dogs that I either euthed or told everyone in my presence (repeatedly) that if anything happened to me X dog was to be euthed, not placed. Much depends on the basic temperament, how long the dog has felt threatened enough to posture/react and how hard the humans are willing to work to overcome or adjust their lifestyle to accommodate the dog. There is no way for me to know that over the internet, so I usually choose the safest option.
Cosmonster - do you really think you can keep people safe from your dog, always and forever?
I really wonder about the inherent temperaments of dogs these days and the measures people take to make their lives fit around them. I can not and will not do that. No dogs life is more valuable to me than a humans… But mostly, I dont understand how it has gotten so darn hard these days to have a dog, unless there is something inherently causing a problem in their breeding.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do. As I said, he no longer snaps and has not shown any aggression in at least 3 years, probably closer to 4. He comes with me almost everywhere and is just fine, because I spent a lot of time carefully socializing him. He is a purebred heeler from strong working lines so he’ll always be a very strong and drivey dog, and as I said he does not do well around children, but I don’t have kids and don’t spend much time around them so that isn’t an issue.
Even so, he does not behave aggressively towards children unless they are pestering him and he can’t get away (which has not been allowed to happen since I’ve owned him). His first reaction is to try to leave the situation. I’m not even 100% sure that he would snap at a child who was tormenting him anymore, although it is not something I would like to test. However, the only way I can realistically see that happening is if a kid breaks into my house while I’m gone or something bizarre like that, because I literally never have my dogs out in public unsupervised. That even applies to my dog who is super friendly and has never shown an ounce of aggression in the 10 years I’ve owned him, because he’s still a dog and any dog can bite if provoked.
He also never has injured anyone. The escalation came because his previous owners were essentially training him that snapping was the only way to handle situations that made him uncomfortable. If they had continued, I’m sure he would have eventually actually bitten someone. Instead, I got him and focused on desensitizing him so he is comfortable in most situations, and he knows other ways of handling situations that he doesn’t like.
So yeah, I have no worries about my dog some day injuring someone, except in the sense that any dog can injure someone. It wasn’t a big adjustment for my lifestyle anyway. I’m alone most of the time and enjoy spending tons of time with my dogs, so it was very natural and fun for me to work with a difficult dog like that. He’s also very eager to please and has a fun personality, so it was nice to see him come along in his training. It wasn’t even that complicated of an issue to work on, just something that required time, patience and positive training techniques.
I probably wouldn’t have taken him in if I’d wanted kids or anything like that, but I don’t particularly like kids and don’t intend to ever have any, so that isn’t a problem. On the rare occasion that kids come to my house I simply let him sleep in my office, which he prefers anyway.
I don’t think it’s hard to have dogs. I have 4, all very high energy and high drive herding dogs. I find it quite enjoyable and simple (well, the GSD who was dumped on me was pretty difficult at first, but that’s why we went to a trainer and he’s great now), though as I said I’d spend a ton of time with even the easiest dog in the world so it’s no hassle for me. I also know many other people who own nice, well-behaved dogs without significant lifestyle adjustments.
I simply shared the story about my dog because I felt it was a good illustration of why punishing the growl rather than addressing the root problem is not a good idea.
ETA actually I was just discussing this conversation with the friend who gave me the dog, and apparently I’ve actually owned him for 8 years and he’s been totally reliable for 6 of those. She gave him up in March of 2004, and I know I only had any kind of trouble with him for the first two years. So yeah, 6 years of reliability and good behavior? I’m pretty comfortable with that.
Regarding the wolves vs dogs “Dominance” therory, I trained my first dog using Kohler’s method, so that’s how far back I go! Wolves don’t fight to gain dominance, but the “alphas” ARE theh alphas. They are (generally) the ones who decide when the pack decides to go out hunting, which direction they are going to go, which territory belongs to the pack and (most importantly) it is only the alpha breeding pair who mate & produce puppies. They eat first and the efforts of all the pack goes into raising the alpha pair’s pups.
Hmmmm…sound to me alot like parents (which most of the time is exactly what they are).
AND the alphas discipline. True, they may not fight their way to the top, but if a lower-ranking member growls at them (the basis for this thread in the first place), they will bust them immediately and harshly.
But the bottom line is this: no matter what title you want to give it, in a dog structure there is a hierarchy. Most of my life I’ve had multiple dogs at a time, and I don’t need a study to tell me how dogs act.
It used to be the spayed Bullie female was the leader (over the un-neutered GSD). Then it was the intact male Heeler/Rottie over the female JRT & neutered Pit cross. Now it is the neutered Pit over the spayed Heeler and the new Heeler puppy.
And on top of the food chain is ME!!
Personally, I’ve played with clicker training with my horses, but not gone to far with it. I’ve had alot of great success with the “natural horsemanship” style of horse training (move their feet) so that works for me.
As for the dogs, I DO give them food treats some, but I’ve never used it alot for training. In terms of messing with my food – I’m a cavewoman – a “NO!!! BAD DOG!!!” , a quick grab at the scruff and a smack on the butt…and we’re done. It’s never taken more than once to a pup and they get it.
Personally, I think dogs respond far more quickly and consistently o/o a desire to please their leader than food treats. But first you have to BE their leader.
And, while my dogs aren’t perfect, I am always getting high praise for how well behaved my dogs are.
To me the keys to instilling good doggie behavior has nothing to do with food. It has to do with:
A strong (but fair and loving) Leader for them to look up to.
Fulfilling their doggie needs (like exercise – I am shocked how under-exercised so many dogs are), so they are not as inclined to get into trouble.
Consistency. What is “no” today is “no” tomorrow and the day after that. The worst thing you can do for a dog is be inconsistent…
And, like horses, dogs (and cats) have highly developed sense of your “energy”. And it’s hard to teach a human how to put out the right energy…because we humans have these big brains, we have a tendency to really over think things. Energy is not an intellectual thing.
Which is why the girl who helps me feed and do stable work will do the same thing PHYSICALLY as me and the stud colt ignores her…in fact, pushes her around. This is a woman who is far younger than me, fitter than me and faster than me. I can show her the exercise over and over again and she just doesn’t get it.
I come hobbling in the pasture and that colt salutes!! There is no nonsense from him. It’s Energy first….then comes a structure or method of training and (lastly) comes a refinement of your chosen technique.
I am one of those people who think there are many roads to Rome, but when working with animals your Energy is far more important then technique…
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;6180038]
Great examples, Cos and 3dogs.
I guess each person has to decide how much time they can commit and what their risk comfort zone is without romanticizing the situation.[/QUOTE]
Definitely. I probably wouldn’t be comfortable working with a straight-up aggressive dog. My Bandido is more of a fear-biter (for lack of a better term), though he did also have some issues with resource guarding as well. However, it was clear that he likes people and wanted to be a good dog, so I had plenty to work with. Everyone has their own comfort levels, and there’s nothing at all wrong with that. :yes:
I totally agree. Just about any non-abusive training method will work as long as these three needs are met.
I don’t like to frame discussions about dog training in dominance theory terms (like “alpha”) because I think many dog owners interpret that as aggression rather than assertiveness. I’m definitely my dogs’ leader, but I don’t even like to call myself their pack leader. I’m a human, so I’m in a different class than the rest of the pack and some things they do to each other (like jump on each other during play time) are not ever okay to do with me. That’s just a personal language preference though.
We have a 14 year old ACD/JRT mix who is the epitome of a strong minded dog! She also went through 6 homes in 18 months before she came to us as a young dog, because she is very difficult to manage. I’m quite sure she must have been abused or disciplined physically at some point as well as she is fear aggressive. She’s gotten much better in the 12 years we’ve had her, but she’ll never be an easy dog and she most certainly will be euthed, rather than rehomed, if we can’t keep her (at her current age that decision has certainly become a no brainer).
She needs a leader and solid boundaries for sure, but she can’t be “lead” by punishing, disciplining or even directly addressing the issue at hand. She is trained and eager to please and to “work”. What I’ve learned about her is that we need to avoid direct confrontation with her, she will NOT back down, period and she will keep escalating. Keeping her out of situations that are beyond her tolerance is job #1, removing her promptly if one presents itself is job #2. Rather than saying “no barking”, “no growling”, “get off the couch, I want to sit down…”, “no anything…”, it has to be “Dale, sit”, “Dale, lie down”, “Dale, come”, “Dale, go fetch whatever…”. A positive command to do something else will break her off of whatever she is doing that she shouldn’t be, a negative correction will cause an unpleasant confrontation. It’s been that way her whole life and she’s been to professional trainers. It requires some self-discipline to handle her appropriately, there is no room for anger or fear. I loooooove her, most challenging dog I’ve ever encountered but also the most driven/eager to do the right thing and most rewarding once you have her number.
So, no punishing for growling. 1) It would take away her warning and 2) it would cause a confrontation. If she’s growling at someone (usually the young dog or my 9 year old son because they will try to push her limits, being the immature beings that they are), they are told to leave her alone, if that doesn’t happen promptly, for whatever reason, SHE is called off and told to do some random chore that takes her out of their immediate vicinity and distracts her from how annoyed she is by them. She’s never actually bitten either one of them, but I know she would…she’s not left alone with them either.
[I]IOW, if the dog behaves in a certain way (that is unacceptable), he has to “go away” for a short period of time, you then offer him another chance to behave in a way that IS acceptable, if he does, he gets to stay with the humans (reward.)
[/I]Just throwing this out for discussion - devil’s advocate time.
A large number of the dogs that I dealt with when I was doing public training were shy/spooky/unsocialized. It’s sometimes hard to tell what it going on at first but one thing is clear… this dog does not like strangers and would much rather be away from strangers. So if a dog like this growls at your friend in your living room and you put him somewhere else (somewhere safe), aren’t you teaching him to growl?
Yes, it is clear that training success when removing ( unless for simple safety) would depend on whether or not the dog was vested in you. A dog who is not, IME, is never reliably trained because the other motivations are not strong enough to overrule their other desires.
And herein maybe lies the crux of the matter in evaluating/determining training methodologies.
[QUOTE=BarbB;6180231]
[I]IOW, if the dog behaves in a certain way (that is unacceptable), he has to “go away” for a short period of time, you then offer him another chance to behave in a way that IS acceptable, if he does, he gets to stay with the humans (reward.)
[/I]Just throwing this out for discussion - devil’s advocate time.
A large number of the dogs that I dealt with when I was doing public training were shy/spooky/unsocialized. It’s sometimes hard to tell what it going on at first but one thing is clear… this dog does not like strangers and would much rather be away from strangers. So if a dog like this growls at your friend in your living room and you put him somewhere else (somewhere safe), aren’t you teaching him to growl?[/QUOTE]
If that’s all you do, maybe. With my dog, if it got to the point where he reacted to the people, then I would remove him and put him in a boring, uncomfortable room (the bathroom, where there was nothing soft to lay on and no toys or food) rather than a more pleasant spot like the bedroom or office (which is where he goes when he’s not being bad but he’s uncomfortable around whoever is there).
However, a huge part of the training was spending time socializing and desensitizing him so that he didn’t feel the need to act out in those situations. If you’re just removing the dog from whatever situations make him growl, you’re not going to get very far. You need to do the two strategies together.
Theoretically, this should also work with children, though in this child centered world :rolleyes: I am seeing less and less of the “your behavior has consequences” model of parenting.
