OP - I agree with you. I train obedience dogs (positive, calm etc) and ride - my horses have the same manners as my dogs 'cause I expect (and train) it. Heck, if I can get my very timid nervy anxiety-ridden little BC to behave in public, I sure as heck can manage a 600kg+ horse - who is not timid, nervy or anxiety ridden. Dogs like black/white as much as horses. And I never make the assumption that a horse or a dog will not hurt you just because they “love” you - “love” is an emotion that, IMO, dogs and horses feel but it is not as we understand and allow those we love to get away with things. My alpha bitch loves her pack mates - but woe betide any that don’t listen to the warning first.
I found that my horse, cat and dog are similar to train - in that they are food motivated. I’ve worked with my horse and dog together in a round pen doing tricks. One bows for carrots - while the other bows for liver treats. My horse will even bow by himself - then come nudge me for a treat and my dog does the same thing. I think they taught that to each other ? My cat caught on fairly easy to teach w/food. The hardest part was teaching him to take food from my hand. I can walk my dog & cat together down the street - side by side in their harnesses. They can both sit & lay on command. My cats best trick is to jump from one stool to another stool thru a hulahoop held in the air between the stools. My dog does a similar trick. The commonality between all of them being (motivated by food). Oh yes, one can train husbands this way as well. 
Horse and dog are the same training-wise for me.
Happy response to good bahavior, correction for bad (and then forget about it). Predator or prey, both animals appreciate and instruction that is clear and understandable.
When I hear “don’t treat horses like dogs” what I take it mean is horses are prey and dogs are predators, so their instincts and motivations are very different. Horses are going to usually run first and ask questions later. Dogs are going to typically stand their ground. So you have to be aware in any situation you may have a 1500 lb animal reacting in a way that may get you hurt. Also their body language is different, so you need to read them differently.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7967789]
I don’t know where the statistic of ‘most people’ with dogs have moderate to bad manners comes from.[/QUOTE]
Spend an afternoon in a small animal DVM’s exam room…
Sort of a spin off but I am amazed at people who are adept at horse handling but can not walk their own dog on a leash! If you can make a horse walk calmly next to you without pulling or lagging behind you should be able to walk any dog the same way. Mind boggling!
i’ve mostly owned dogs that are the size of small horses and trust me they can do a huge amount of damage.
with dogs, what you need to control is their drive and aggression. with horses you need to control their fear and reactivity. but apart from that, i believe the methods are very similar.
i’ve trained powerful dogs all my life. i am new to horse training. at the beginning i was warned that training horses isn’t like training dogs. but, i’ve found that to be incorrect. it is a great deal like training dogs.
both species respond to your intentions and your energy above all. calm, assertive energy is leadership energy, and both dogs and horses are looking for a leader, someone who is in charge of all danger, so that they can relax and let you take responsibility and protect them.
yes! dogs are also looking for comfort, safety, and protection. it is when you don’t provide this that they become aggressive. and it is when you don’t provide this that horses become flighty and dangerous.
so i think fundamentally, good horse and dog training require the same things of owners.
and i agree with those who say the vast majority of dogs are spoiled and out of control. a huge pet peeve of mine.
Well if dogs are “pack animals” and horses are “herd animals” then there is a correlation in training methods. Horses listen to & obey the herd leader whether it is a boss mare or a boss gelding. So they will respond to a “boss human” if they are trained correctly. And they learn the dog obedience terms and know what to do. When a lesson horse starts trotting or cantering when the instructor tells the kids to do either, and before the kids react, that means the horse knows what the words mean.
Sure there are differences between dogs and horses. Unless you know how to teach tricks, your horse won’t sit on command.
but he will learn to “heel” (although opposite side from dog heeling) and “stay” and “come” if you teach him with patience and consistency.
[QUOTE=red mares;7967582]
Most people with horses don’t have competition dogs.
They have house pets with moderate to bad manners, that sleep in bed with them. If they treated their 800+lb horse like the 8 lb Chihuahua in their purse, they’d be dead.[/QUOTE]
around many people who once had competition horses when they were younger now have competition dogs… there are many parallels to the successful training.
as for putting the 800 pound horse in the purse, the problem is picking the purse up once you get the horse in.
Funny, I have always treated horses as you say, naughty=punishment, good=reward. I am too small to mess with a 1000 pound creature. That said, I do not punish my dogs when I train. I use positive methods, and the most punishment they get is to be ignored or removed from a situation. I train agility.
I would suggest that the training required for a horse to be a useful equine citizen and a safe one for its human handlers are probably equivalent to the training required for a useful working dog (or agility, shows, whatever). If you train working dogs, then the expectations won’t be so different.
Horses who have the equivalent manners of a lot of people’s pet dogs are a pain in the arse to handle. It might be annoying, but it is not a big deal, when a 20lbs dog jumps on your or pulls on the lead. It is more of a problem if a 1200lbs horse does that. Additionally, the commands or behaviours a pet dog needs to know are quite basic. Come, sit, stay, don’t pee or poo in the house. In order to be a pleasant riding horse, even at the lowest of levels before you get into any discipline, the commands or behaviours the horse needs to know are more complex. More like a working dog. And to be fair, most dog owners probably cannot train a dog to be a good working animal.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7968597]
Sort of a spin off but I am amazed at people who are adept at horse handling but can not walk their own dog on a leash! If you can make a horse walk calmly next to you without pulling or lagging behind you should be able to walk any dog the same way. Mind boggling![/QUOTE]
I know! When I read the OP, my first thought was my father. The man whose first advice to me when I bought my first horse was “You need a good beatin’ whip”:winkgrin: has some of the most spoiled pets on the planet.
Both his dog & cat beg at the table. I think a large part of that is just because it annoys my mother.
I’ve always felt horses, dogs, cats and children will all be as dumb as you let them be. I expect obedience from all of them. And when they are young I follow my mother’s adage “If it’s not going to be cute when they are an adult, it’s not cute when they are a child.”
My first horse started running over the barn manager when she brought her in. When she told me this I was there at the next feeding. Horse did it and ran to her stall. I yanked her out of it. Put her back out and worked with her until she would go from pasture to stall in a perfect free heal. Then she got her dinner. It took 45 minutes and the BM was trilled. Like I say they are as dumb as you let them be.
[QUOTE=red mares;7967582]
Most people with horses don’t have competition dogs.
They have house pets with moderate to bad manners, that sleep in bed with them. If they treated their 800+lb horse like the 8 lb Chihuahua in their purse, they’d be dead.[/QUOTE]
I tell my clients (I do dog boarding) that they need to pretend their dog weighs 1000 pounds, that way manners don’t become something that would be nice for their dog to have but also life saving. That image works with some people but not all. What makes me nuts is the dogs that act like perfect angels the whole time they are here and literally jump all over their owners as soon as they walk in the door! I am standing there saying they haven’t done that once all week, don’t let them do it now!!! I had one tiny dog with absolutely no manners or training of any sort including housebreaking here for a week. I worked my butt off on that dog and when his owner got here and picked him up the dog hit him in the face and the owner cooed and cuddled him for doing that. I give up.
The adage was don’t treat horses like dogs, not, don’t train horses like dogs. I think the training, particularly ground work, can be similar…reward or correction, repetition , body language, focus on handler.
It’s the treatment/aka handling part that can differ. Most would agree horses have a much stronger panic instinct than dogs, and even a well trained horse can react violently when something frightens them or overloads them. It is much harder to bring a horse back to a state of calmness when that happens, or to get them to re focus on the human. Of course preventing that through safe handling, good ground manners etc is paramount but not possible in every situation. The OP has not experienced that yet as a newer horse owner and if she is lucky will never experience it, but if she does, all comparisons to a dog go out the window.
Because dogs are predators, though they can be fearful, they rarely go into full blown panic, whereas a horse can reach that state in seconds and over what seems to us minor things, or something that in past has not upset them.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;7968777]
The adage was don’t treat horses like dogs, not, don’t train horses like dogs. I think the training, particularly ground work, can be similar…reward or correction, repetition , body language, focus on handler.
.[/QUOTE]
100 % spot on. I train police dogs, search and rescue dogs, non human primate and horses. Every species is trained directed at their natural instincts with the primary focus on classical operant conditioning. To blanket train horses=dogs=X just doesn’t work. A person may luck out but behaviorally, they are different (obviously, fight or flight, prey vs predator etc).
People who are proficient with their dogs/horses/insert animal here are people who are good “behaviorists” and good at reading animals and adjust training/conditioning accordingly. Some horse owners vs dog owners just don’t give a crap to train their animals properly. ( or their children for that matter).
Sadly it is the animals who truly suffer with lack of training, with the collateral damage of those around them.
A little off topic but maybe interesting. My lab came to the barn with me every day until he was euthanized at the age of 16. He was well trained and responded to voice and hand signals. He was not allowed in paddocks or the riding ring (obviously) but I would use hand signals to call him to me when he ranged a bit far. After his passing I realized that my horse had picked up some of the hand signals when I accidently used the dog’s “come” signal. At first I just thought it was a coincidence but when I tried the left, right, and stay, the horse responded correctly. Go figure.
[QUOTE=red mares;7967582]
If they treated their 800+lb horse like the 8 lb Chihuahua in their purse, they’d be dead.[/QUOTE]
And even if they treated their 80lb dog like the 8lb one in their purse, they wouldn’t be happy with the result.
Dogs are or aren’t diff from horses?
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7967527]
My point is that having my first horse and teaching him to do stuff really doesn’t seem any different than training I have done with dogs. The motivators are different, as are the animal’s responses, but is there something about horses/dogs that most people do that I’m not?[/QUOTE]
Ummmm weren’t you telling me in a Menagerie thread how different the two species are and not to treat them the same? 
Here is that quote:
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7961175]Dogs aren’t horses, and this will just teach the dog to fear having its nails clipped. You also can’t clip its nails every single time it does this. They like learning to do new things and have even shorter attention spans than horses. Most dogs LOVE to work, so you can’t view this as if you would a horse.
A remote collar on a LOW setting would eliminate this behavior, but consult a trainer because remote collars can be used incorrectly to extremely detrimental effects. I use one in all my training but I consulted a pro and took lessons first.[/QUOTE]
In other news, I agree with clanter. The majority of local dog competitors were/are also horse people.
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7969862]
Ummmm weren’t you telling me in a Menagerie thread how different the two species are and not to treat them the same?
Here is that quote:
In other news, I agree with clanter. The majority of local dog competitors were/are also horse people.[/QUOTE]
At what point did I say here that horses and dogs are the same 100% of the time with no variation? If I recall I said this:
The motivators are different, as are the animal’s responses
Meaning that dogs and horses don’t have the same motivators/aversions, which is exactly what the quote you have from me says.
You can’t use an e-collar on a horse, either (or at least shouldn’t), nor would I ever try. The base behavioral modification seems to be consistent with most mammals, but there are certain differences. The whole work-not-working-as-a-punishment thing for dogs is one of them.
