Lindsay thank you for commenting here and clarifying things from your perspective. Question: to the best of your knowledge were you ever identified to the officials as the person involved and were they aware that the “interference” was by a member of the press? (In quotes because both you and the rider have both now stated publicly that you didn’t feel endangered making in sound like you both acted appropriately.) It seems to me that before you slap someone with 25 there’s some due diligence that ought to happen.
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I had absolutely no knowledge of the reason for the penalties until I saw Doug’s post on my way home.I do remember walking over to some other photographers very soon after Doug went by and saying, “Hmm. Why does he and one other person have 25 penalties? How does that add up? Maybe a mistake entered on the computer.” I can’t say I’ve ever seen DR penalties at an FEI event that I’ve been covering, so it honestly didn’t cross my mind. It seems to be so rarely invoked, and FEI yellowcards are only made public after the fact.
As far as extra access for the press, that’s definitely not a thing at Jersey Fresh! They don’t have specific roped areas like they do for Kentucky.
I was walking near the backside of the advanced jump when he cut over, so assumed I was OK, and once he galloped by me I was able to figure out where the actual track was supposed to be, which was on the other side of the rope, and that I was actually fine where I was. I just remember it crossing my mind that, “Oh, it’s Doug, and it looks like he’s taking a shortcut.”
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I have not seen anywhere that he was actually told it was NOT viable - do you have a source for that? That would be different than if he was told it could be a judgment call, which is what it sounded like from DP’s post. Now, I agree if you are told it is a judgment call you are still taking a risk, but that’s still very different than being told it is not allowed. And saying it is a judgment call implies that there are circumstances where it would be ok.
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I’ll have to find it in this post again, I got the impression he was told it was a bad idea and it may have consequences - I did glean that is was IMPLIED he could get a DR or warning card or something so that may have been just my interpretation.
Regardless, he was told it is a judgement call and if an official said something like that to me, I would have taken it as a coded “don’t do that”. He may have taken it differently, which may be part of the issue - if he wasn’t picking up what the official was putting down, so to speak. That is assuming that my interpretation is correct - which it may not be. If I can again where I got that impression, I will quote it.
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If they don’t want people to take shortcuts they need to come out and say it!
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No one here, that I know of, thinks that Doug Payne is “a God” or a “Hero”. I certainly don’t. “Public Flogging”? Really? That’s a bit of drama isn’t it?
Most of us just hope that our ULR’s will set a good example , follow the rules, and be a good sport.
It is not too much to ask that they be ethical and set a good example for the young riders.
I was taught by people that apparently had different thoughts than some of our ULRs do, about what sportsmanship, competition, and fairness are. I am so grateful to them.
I don’t know how people think about this now, but my mentors taught me better than to skirt the rules just because it was possible.
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If this is an issue I don’t understand why it’s not codified as a rule by the competition. You want no unleashed dogs? Say so in the prize list. You want no parking in field X? Say so in the prize list. You want no riding outside the ropes? Say so in the prize list. Whether it’s dangerous or not it seems there’s a very easy way to prevent this from happening, just make it a formal rule (either a competition specific rule or a broader rule depending on how widespread the issue is).
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FEI rules;
545.3 Error of Course
All compulsory passages on Cross Country and all obstacles, including all elements and/or
options, must be passed or jumped in order under penalty of elimination.
546.1.1 Red or White Boundary Flags
Red or white boundary flags shall be used to mark the starting and finishing lines, to mark
compulsory passages, and to define obstacles. They are placed in such a way that an Athlete
must leave a red flag on his right and a white flag on his left.
546.4 Course Plans
Each Athlete will be given in advance a plan showing the track of the course.
The course plan must include the following:
a) The position of the start and finish
b) The numbered obstacles and compulsory passages
c) The distance
d) The optimum time and time limit
I guess that’s why he got the ding for dangerous riding, instead of elimination.
There seems to be a grey area between the marked course and the compulsory passages.
Is there a rule that says you HAVE to follow the roped off lane ?
Also, if it looked like this would happen they could have flagged a compulsory passage to avoid the problem.
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Maybe it is because I am a smurf that has never competed above Training, but it has never occurred to me to try and ride between gaps in the rope[s] as a shortcut. I’ve ridden a few courses that had white ropes with gaps in them, too. Often that gap is left there for utility vehicles or foot traffic (like a golf cart toting refreshments for volunteers, etc) to easily pass by and is not considered a true path of the course. The gap is left so that they don’t need to “waste” a volunteer body manning removing the ropes every time a non-competitor needs to get through.
I’m not with DP on this one, and I’m someone that generally dislikes grey areas and unspoken rules. I think he needs to own it and move on. He’s known for “cutting corners” on course and while I admire his ability to try to think out of the box, he could get someone seriously injured or killed - a volunteer, his horse, himself. Yes the video looked in control and lovely, but if that photographer was somewhere else, if a car was there, a volunteer, whoever, it could have ended very differently.
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Well, so far, this has been about taking a short cut to save time… from the other way up, so often the prepared ground and the stringing provide clear guidance on the best approach to an obstacle. A short cut may in practice take longer: being clever may not work. DP didn’t make the time.
I sat at a fence, a nice easy little house, a couple of weeks ago. There were two lines of approach, neither had any string as it was a multi-level competition with fences scattered across the field. Approach #1 was the quick glance, course-walk-whilst-on-the-phone one, which appeared to be a direct line to a simple fence. Approach #2 required a more observant and thoughtful course walk along a slightly wider line on the well prepared ground. Route one took many riders by surprise: they had to do an unanticipated manoeuvre a few strides out, with the associated loss of rthymn and balance, because the fence was surprise! at a slight angle and the ground behind dropped away slightly. Route 2 rode beautifully on a smooth line, no time lost at all.
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He did ask, since it was apparently a grey area, and they told him he could be penalized.
I agree that it would be best not to have grey areas since (obviously) someone will try to take advantage and perhaps put others in danger.
Hopefully he will move on and everyone concerned will learn that grey areas are not a good thing.
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I have read so many comments on social media about this … and maybe 75% of them don’t seem to know the actual rule/s.
It is not the role of officials to invent new rules, or expand on existing rules, on the spot, on the day of competition.
If officials think a rule is not functioning as intended, and/or is being exploited in some way, or that a rule is needed where there is no rule now, the right thing to do is to gather the evidence of what is happening and present it to the rules committee with a request for review and possible change.
An official wanted to discourage this behavior, and said so to the competitor. But the official doesn’t make the rules and the behavior is within the rules as they are written today. When a competitor makes another decision in contradiction of this verbal ‘suggestion’ (all it can be when that is not the rule), the official cannot then be so offended that they arbitrarily apply penalties. Not saying that happened here … don’t know enough about the inner details of what happened … but what has been shared in this thread could be interpreted that way.
He didn’t break a rule.
He didn’t go “off course”. Eventing rules have wide latitude for rider-selected routes. There is the thing about roped lanes, but these weren’t roped.
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Dangerous riding.
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Would one typically gallop so close to knee/chest high plastic stakes going cross country?
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What was dangerous about it? I can understand if he had gone into an out of bounds or unkept area of the grounds (like the canola field at Rebecca Farm), but he clearly stayed in an area that was mown and was within the normal grounds of the competition area. The idea that because there was one pedestrian within 20 feet of him that it was somehow dangerous is ridiculous. I jump judge multiple times a year and see closer encounters than that every time. Spectators and people walking their own courses are often quite oblivious to the people actually riding the course.
There is no rule that says you have to stay within X feet of the marked track. If they didn’t want anyone to go that way, then they should have roped it off.
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Apparently a member of the ground jury saw dangerous riding. I’m certainly not in a position to judge. I wasn’t there, but they were and it’s their call. They did warn him that taking that route may be problematic.
I agree that it would be best if they didn’t leave those sorts of options open and instead make it very clear what is allowed and what isn’t.
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This may be slightly off topic but the above discussion got me thinking - just how hard is it to make the time on XC at the upper levels? I’m in the SJ world and the GP times can be really tight, even a slightly conservative pace or track can pick up a time fault. Is advanced-level XC the same? It seems to me (based on watching helmet cam videos) like the track is (generally) fairly set between horses, and (I think?) there aren’t a ton of add/leave out striding options so does it mostly come down to having the right pace?
Essentially, the courses get longer, faster and more technical as the competition moved up through the levels. Each level has a set speed of metres per minute, set distance and a maximum number of jumping efforts. This is to ensure levels are directly comparable between venues and nations. Riders have watches and use personally identified marker points around the course to ensure they are up to time. Top riders have a sense of speed and time that is as a good jockey on a racehorse. They also develop an eye for ground such that they see the smoothest line, similar to an F1 race driver. They balance the intense jumping sections, where speed will slow down, with opening up in the galloping sections. The top riders waste no time in fiddling around setting up their horse in front of a fence: jumping out of the stride is the aim, with the horse balanced and in rthymn. Counting strides is largely redundant over a 12 minute run. If you look at the best riders, they seem to barely move because they establish a rthymn immediately and allow the horse forward. Chris Burton, Australian, is very good to watch. He is always fast xc, like a knife through butter.
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The right pace, but also the adjustability to go from the big ground covering gallop to a much smaller, more precise canter for the combinations and then immediately back to the gallop. But also in practice as you move up to the top levels-- not every event will be about being competitive. It’s very hard to really reproduce upper level xc at home for most people/horses so often, especially at the national levels, horses won’t be pushed to make time because they will be competing as much for education/ fitness/experience/ preparation for a more important event. And unlike in jumpers there’s generally little to no prize money on offer at the national level. So horses not making the time may be because it’s hard to get, or it may be because of hard/soft going, or it may just be because they’re not intended to peak just then.
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Yes.
The ropes I have seen typically look like and there are often times the galloping lane has the riders very close to the ropes.
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