Doug Payne Given A Dangerous Riding Penalty at Jersey Fresh

[RacetrackReject]

I think this is the gist of the whole thing. While an official can say that there might be penalties if someone does something, if there is not an actual rule in place, then any penalties are subjective and up for debate without the benefit of anything official to back them up.

Honestly, I would give a DR penalty to someone whose loss of control caused them to have to jump a human than to someone who deliberately chose an alternate route that did not endanger anyone. ( I know nothing about that incident other than what was posted here where people were commenting that the rider may not have had to control).

[Janet]

@vxf111

You want no unleashed dogs? Say so in the prize list.

That is already in the rule book. I am not sure of the FEI specifics, but at the national level it is a $100 fine. Anyone reading the prize list should be expected to know the rules.

But putting “no unleased dogs” in the PROGRAM would make sense, since spectators can not be assumed to know the rules.

But what does “unleashed dogs” have to do with Doug Payne’s DR penalty?

[vxf111]

It’s just an example. If you want riders to behave certain ways, tell them they must. Don’t just rely on it being a norm.

I’m not an eventer, so perhaps my illustrations weren’t all perfect.

Whether or not riders must stay within the ropes seems to be an “unstated” rule so if organizers intend to penalize riders for it they should say so explicitly. Just like they should state other rules explicitly.

[Djones]

Watch any roped course on YouTube, you’ll see it’s very commonplace.

[Ajierene]

@Gardenhorse

What was dangerous about it? I can understand if he had gone into an out of bounds or unkept area of the grounds (like the canola field at Rebecca Farm), but he clearly stayed in an area that was mown and was within the normal grounds of the competition area. The idea that because there was one pedestrian within 20 feet of him that it was somehow dangerous is ridiculous. I jump judge multiple times a year and see closer encounters than that every time. Spectators and people walking their own courses are often quite oblivious to the people actually riding the course.

There is no rule that says you have to stay within X feet of the marked track. If they didn’t want anyone to go that way, then they should have roped it off.

I know only what has been stated on this thread - but upthread someone noted that Payne took more than one shortcut on this horse. He may be showing just one of the shortcuts and not the one that was considered dangerous riding. It may be there was another part of the ride that did fall into dangerous territory or maybe the accumilation of shortcuts gave the official the impression safety was a very low priority for Payne.

EDIT:

Here’s the quote:

@LadyLawyer

@Marigold but I did not say it was on multiple horses, I said DP took shortcuts and rode outside the galloping lanes more than once, meaning multiple locations throughout the course, on one horse, in one singular round … and the DR penalties were assessed to him on that horse.

So by cumulative actions, I meant the above situation, which I personally witnessed. I do understand what you mean when you gave the dog example, and I would tend to agree with you if that were the case, but that scenario was not present in this situation.

[SecondInCommand]

I made the same point upthread. It’s hard to draw fairness conclusions from the video if the video is a red herring.

[OverandOnward]

At every event, there are riders who take alternative route options that are legal. Everyone does NOT have to stay on the same track - and they don’t. That is eventing.

An example is any fall event when riders often move horses up a level. Oh-so-common to see them take the green-to-the-level horse into the water AWAY from the flags, so if the horse hesitates, it won’t be penalized. Let the horse get its feet wet and develop some confidence that the water has no alligators (today). Then come back around and enter through the flags for a clean trip. It’s legal, and it is smart riding and good horsemanship.

There are dozens of examples of common alternative routes that riders choose for all kinds of reasons. Some have been given in this thread. Leaving the track is in the spirit of eventing.

Those of you tutt-tutting that a rider would dare leave the same track that everyone else is on - you do realize that it is legal for a rider to leave the course altogether, then come back and finish? (Not sure about FEI level, but at the U.S. national level, you can.) The rider is burning the clock doing such a thing, but so long as they don’t exceed the time limit, that can happen. That’s not why people come to event and it would be very rare - but anyway.

I once saw a rider at BN take a slide-off-the-horse’s-shoulder “fall” and land standing, completely legal to re-mount and continue the course. But her horse got away from her and went storming back to the trailers. The rider communicated to officials that she absolutely intended to remount and continue the course. An official gave her a speedy golf-cart ride down the hill to meet some spectators who had caught the horse way off course in the concession area. She got back on said horse in the spectator area, not even on the course. Came galloping hard back up the hill and put that [descriptive-word-of-choice] horse over the shiny coop, and they finished with no additional penalties other than time. They finished, and sometimes that is what counts the most in eventing. It’s why I love it so much.

[OverandOnward]

@vxf111

Whether or not riders must stay within the ropes seems to be an “unstated” rule so if organizers intend to penalize riders for it they should say so explicitly. Just like they should state other rules explicitly.

There is no such thing as an “unstated” rule. In any sport.

No, officials cannot make up an extra rule and enforce it. Today, here, when that rule is not in effect anywhere else, and is not endorsed by the governing organization, and not written into the rulebook.

Eventing is about rider discretion and judgment. Telling a rider what they can and can’t do, outside of the actual rulebook, should lead to a quiet reprimand to the official. “You can’t do that, there are other ways to present changes you think need to be made.” IMO.

As the story has been told, IMO it’s the official who needs a word. Not Doug. BUT I wasn’t there and I’m sure we will never hear the entire story with every fine detail, from this distance.

[Blugal]

@OverandOnward

you do realize that it is legal for a rider to leave the course altogether

Back in the 1990s, there was the Chase Creek CCI with roads and tracks and steeplechase. It is remote, in a mountainous region of interior BC. Remote enough that there’s still no cell service there now in 2021.

Eventers were tougher then, more rough and ready, sure, but also perfectly fine with pole paddocks (no shelter from rain), water pumped from the creek, tenting and outhouses.

You came to Chase, normally held the last weekend in September, prepared. Oilskin jackets and gumboots were de riguer. Winter boots were wise. It was not unheard of to wake up to snow, and then get sunburned the next day. The Saturday night parties were epic.

One event, a rider was late coming in from roads and tracks. Very late. Past the time limit, eliminated. Uh, XC is over, has anyone seen Bob? He got lost in the mountains and was retrieved 3 hours later! I don’t recall if he came in on his own or if a search party found him.

No glory for him that weekend but it is a classic Chase Creek story.

[soloudinhere]

Dangerous riding is in and of itself a subjective penalty AND has discretionary levels of application.

“Any Athlete who, at any time during the Competition deliberately or unintentionally by incompetence is exposing himself, his Horse or any third party to a higher risk than what is strictly inherent to the nature of the Competition will be considered to have acted dangerously and will be penalised accordingly to the severity of the infringement.”

There were no new rules created. People are focusing on the specific example of jumping the ropes (though that’s actually not how the rule is worded, it’s “jumping out of the roped track”) but dangerous riding is anything that the president of the ground jury feels is higher risk than the competition as designed. Repeatedly taking an alternative track that causes you to deviate substantially from the flagged course and weave around other jumps/make show jumping style turns over solid fences at speed could certainly run you afoul of that definition, seeing as you can get a DR just for repeatedly leaving out a stride or chipping in.

[vxf111]

There are unstated rules/norms (and I think they cause unecessary confusion/drama when stating a rule explicitly would reduce some of that).

It is not against the rules to use a running martingale in a hunter over fences class. I can’t imagine a judge using you if you do so, however, because it’s contrary to the unstated rules/norms that you only use a standing martingale.

There’s an unstated rule/norm in dressage (at least the few shows I did where I completely violated this until someone stopped me and kindly and explained it to me) that when you’re warming up before you go into the ring you don’t ride behind the judge’s stand.

It’s been an unstated rule for every type of riding I’ve ever done (and only a stated rule at Devon, nowhere else) that you don’t lunge in the same ring as where people are warming up under saddle. I once did one see someone get asked to leave for doing this and refusing to stop when the steward asked her to stop.

Dressage at Devon had separate warmup areas for stallions/geldings and mares. I don’t think it was an actual USEF/USDF rule that you don’t ride a mare in the stallion warmup area. I think that was a (frankly kind of obvious but still unstated) unstated rule.

I think most shows have some language in the entry that they can refuse and entry or kick an entry out for failing to abide by the rules of the competition.

I’m not an expert on eventing rules, but I am pretty sure the USEA can promulgate rules for events and I am also pretty confident that organizers can set “rules” (whether formal rules or just procedures that must be followed or else they will disqualify you from that event) for their own competition. Maybe “rule” is the wrong word but if a horse trial doesn’t want riders doing XYZ can’t they prohibit that and make it grounds for disqialification? Or, in the case of riding outside the ropes, just rope off any area they don’t want riders going? If it is dangerous to ride outside the ropes areas I’m all for preventing riders from doing that-- but if it’s truly dangerous why not just rope off the area and/or tell riders they will be diqualified if they go around.

I also agree with others that if by going around the ropes DP did put groundpeople/his horse in danger that that could alone be dangerous riding. But my understanding was that there was at least some suspicion that he got the card PURELY for going around the ropes and not for going around the ropes PLUS something else (going around the ropes and thereby coming too close to a person, going around the ropes and onto ungroomed footing, going around the ropes and crossing someone else’s path etc.)

If riders going around the ropes is a safety consideration why leave it to discretion? Why not just rope off all areas you don’t want riders going or tell them they must stay on the prescriped path or else they will face a penalty.

[Jealoushe]

Hopefully that doesn’t happen to Doug In Tokyo.

“Anyone seen Doug Payne?”

“He jumped a shrub after fence 11, never heard from again, somewhere Northern Japan now”

[skydy]

@Jealoushe

Hopefully that doesn’t happen to Doug In Tokyo.

“Anyone seen Doug Payne?”

“He jumped a shrub after fence 11, never heard from again, somewhere Northern Japan now”

Hopefully he won’t stay or end up in an area in which Japan has already declared an emergency.

I can’t explain how horrified I am watching the world’s privileged athletes/sports people be offered vaccinations so they can attend a sporting event in a country where less than 3% of the population is vaccinated and the numbers of COVID cases are spiking. https://apnews.com/article/tokyo-japan-olympic-games-health-coronavirus-pandemic-09484735196d1d21198a4f2bcfba67b2

What is wrong with our U.S. Federation? No consideration for human health in Japan?
I know, and so do they, that Olympic athletes and of their entourages from all participating countries, are being vaccinated so they can attend a sporting event, while other human beings in Japan (and worldwide) who are much more vulnerable to the virus cannot obtain a vaccine and will continue to go without?

USOPC leaders 'more optimistic than ever' athletes will be vaccinated before...

Tokyo Games need 500 nurses; nurses say needs are elsewhere

Most of us realize that the Olympics are probably going to go ahead, only due to big money interests, and it will be to the detriment of the health of the Japanese people who are now under a state of emergency, locked down,suffering and dying.

I am disgusted beyond words that anyone from the U.S. is willing to endanger an island nation for sport.

By participating, we are complicit.

[Jealoushe]

Agreed. No one in Japan wants the games but the government.

[OverandOnward]

What does the Japan Olympics have to do with Doug’s alternative route … ?

There is another thread for eventing in the Japan Olympics.

[skydy]

@OverandOnward

What does the Japan Olympics have to do with Doug’s alternative route … ?

There is another thread for eventing in the Japan Olympics.

It came up in the conversation as these things sometimes do.

@Jealoushe

Hopefully that doesn’t happen to Doug In Tokyo.

“Anyone seen Doug Payne?”

“He jumped a shrub after fence 11, never heard from again, somewhere Northern Japan now”

That led my thoughts to Japan and the Olympics. Is that a problem?

[Jealoushe]

It was a joke…lighten up

[Huntin_Fool]

Upfront let me say I’m a foxhunter not an eventer-so I go over unmanicured stuff all the time. I read the posts here the other day, and probably missed the answer to this, but to me the whole thing should hinge on Was it illegal? Is there a rule against this? If so he deserves punishment. If not, then no. He broke no rule. If judges/organizers don’t like that, then change the rules. But if he didn’t break a rule I don’t understand why he would punished.

Regards,
Huntin’Fool

[Ajierene]

@Huntin_Fool

Upfront let me say I’m a foxhunter not an eventer-so I go over unmanicured stuff all the time. I read the posts here the other day, and probably missed the answer to this, but to me the whole thing should hinge on Was it illegal? Is there a rule against this? If so he deserves punishment. If not, then no. He broke no rule. If judges/organizers don’t like that, then change the rules. But if he didn’t break a rule I don’t understand why he would punished.

Regards,
Huntin’Fool

The Dangerous Riding rule is an ambiguous rule that leaves room for interpretation by the officials. So it isn’t that he was supposed to pick path A and instead opted for his own path, it’s that what he did was deemed unsafe to himself, and/or others.

To put it in hunting terms, some hunts are more strict about staying in your flight than other hunts and what “staying with your flight” means. So in one hunt, no one may bat an eye if the entire field ends up running across a field together where another may reprimand a rider if someone from second flight ends up next to an individual designated as first flight.

One of the differences between hunting and eventing is the lack or photographers, jump judges, course walkers, and random spectators along the course. So it isn’t just about terrain but also about other people.

I know the above may not exactly relate to safety, it is a similar type rule - where there is a lot left up to the official. (Though depending on the size of the hunt, to many horses together may very well pose a safety risk).

We are also not sure if the video posted by Payne is the part of the course that caused the official to give him dangerous riding penalties or if there is other riding involved as other posters have noted he took more than one shortcut.

[soloudinhere]

Dangerous riding is not in and of itself a rule, except that the rule is “a rider shall not ride dangerously.” A definition is given of what COULD constitute dangerous but it’s denoted not to be an exhaustive list. The rule is broken if, in the opinion of the ground jury, a rider rides in such a way as to put himself, his horse, spectators, or officials in danger.

I am taking a wild guess but I’m guessing the person who jumped a jump judge got a warning because she didn’t do it repeatedly. Doug got the next step up, the penalties, because he did whatever he did more than one time. His attitude may have played into it, I have personally witnessed situations where a rider’s attitude made the difference between something being deemed an error of judgement (and thus getting a warning) versus deliberate (and walking away with 25 penalties.)