Dr. Carter Judy / bone scan - experience?

Wondering if anyone from California or otherwise has used Dr. Judy and has any feedback to give?

Separately, if anyone can weigh in on their experience with bone scans generally? I know it’s iffy as to whether they help, but heard they’re better usually for young horses (my mare is 6).

I’m going on month 4 of an ongoing mystery lameness and my trainer suggested trying Dr. Judy at Alamo for a second opinion and maybe getting a bone scan. I’ve done hours and hours of nerve blocking and other tests with a very good sports medicine vet, to no avail. The horse is worse than she was originally and we still don’t know exactly what’s wrong with her or what she did to hurt herself.

Dr Judy is great! I have used him twice for MRI on two different horses. I have also had a bone scan done on a 3rd horse, but that was at San Luis Rey. Easy to talk too, not afraid to offer his opinion.

Most recent bone scan experience at Alamo was with friend’s horse who seemed hock lame, but had clean local xrays. At Alamo, they thought hock too, took different hock xrays and they were also clean. They resisted doing any injections without a bone scan since everything looked clean. Did bone scan, and hock lit up. Got injected, but no improvement. Unfortunately she just lost that horse to colic, so i have no follow up. He was 17.

I think they need to stay there 24 hours post scan to collect radioactive urine.

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Thank you!

Bone scan is one of those things that, when it’s helpful, it’s very helpful, and when it’s not helpful you’re not a lot further forward and “X” dollars out of pocket. Sadly, there is no way to really predict which it will be. AND, when it is helpful, it almost always needs to be followed by other imaging. IME (which is not particularly extensive, honestly), it’s more likely to to find things when there is an overt lameness that has not been successfully localized by other means, or in real high intensity training situations (e.g. racehorses). The “moving ‘poorly’ behind” or “reluctant to hold left lead” sorts of cases in adult dressage horses rarely find anything earth-shattering, and in the oldsters find a bunch of this-and-that of uncertain importance to be chased down. But at least it rules out Big Deal bony things. I don’t know Dr. Judy, but I worked with the radiologist he uses (and has used for years) for several years. If it were geographically convenient I would be very comfortable taking my horse there.

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Thank you. The vet I’ve been using inquired with Dr. Judy (after explaining the history) and he agrees it could be useful, so we’re going to go for it. He said it’s not a guarantee, and I understand. I just don’t know what else to do, and I want to do something. Extensive ultrasounding and many hours of lameness exams and rounds of nerve blocking have not given us a solid answer. She goes from looking totally fine, to throwing her head up and crow-hopping and refusing to canter, to getting to the point when she does that at trot too (she will look sound, and then be a little off looking, and then suddenly totally refuse to trot or canter at all - when I’m on her for these exams, she seems like she’s clearly telling me “no no no! I hurt!!!”. She’s not a horse that fights under saddle at all, until this - something is definitely bugging her). She’s not a horse that limps really - she’s a horse that goes ok, or else says “no way! ouch! I don’t want to move!!” It’s something in her shoulder area most likely and it’s been tricky as hell to figure out.

LOVE Dr Judy! We did a bone scan on my horse about 6 months after a trailering accident. He’d developed a habit of rearing at odd times, and just didn’t seem right to me. His SI lit up like a Christmas tree on the scan, so we did stem cell to repair the tears.

I’ve also worked with Dr Judy on several other injuries and I’ve always found him smart, responsive, and happy to answer questions both in person and via email.

Oh yeah, the email. Very responsive to owner and owner’s vet for consultation.

Update - got the bone scan today. IT WORKED!! It showed a great big intense hot spot on her right front coffin bone. This isn’t something we were able to figure out based on all of the nerve blocking and lameness exams we did - we knew it was something in her right front area, but there was a bunch of secondary soreness making it hard to pinpoint.

I actually wondered about her RF foot from the beginning, since the issues happened not long after our farrier did an experimental heel lift in her shoe only on that side (to correct some imbalance). I worried that it was too drastic of a change, but the lameness exams were pointing to different things and the vet thought she got cast and ripped her shoulder, etc. But it was all from that damn shoe. When Dr. Judy said “this often happens from an injury of some kind to the foot, like landing wrong, something to particularly hurt that foot…” and I thought “yep, bingo, Occam’s razor.”

It’s good news because now we can make a plan to rehab, knowing what is actually sore, and that this is an injury will likely heal completely. Very happy I decided to gamble on the expense and go for this test. Dr. Judy is great.

Also on the bright side - my little mare picked the perfect year to miss show season.

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She did indeed. Glad you found the area of concern and can now definitively treat.

Susan

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Glad it worked and you found it out!

I also had a lameness issue arise right after a farrier appointment. Frustrating but mine was more clear cut than yours. Glad you can work on things and get your mare feeling better. From your posts, she sounds like a really fun horse.

Best wishes

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Hrm my elation dimmed a bit, since my original vet who referred me has a totally different read of the bone scan than what I understood from Dr. Carter. I’m a bit confused all over again, but my instinct is to treat the foot instead of going down more rabbit holes for the other possible injury causes. Competing veterinary opinions is really depressing. I just want my horse to get better, and to not do anything to make her worse.

That’s unfortunate about the dueling opinions. That’s something I haven’t had happen in the five(!) bone scans I’ve had done over the years on three different horses. Probably helped that the referral vet also ran the imaging facility for two of them.

Did they do any additional imaging of the foot? Something like an MRI can be pretty helpful, albeit pricey. The scan is pretty two-dimensional, whereas sliced images through the foot may help to pinpoint the injured area better

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You could always have the images sent out for a tiebreaker opinion (at the risk that the opinion will be different than the two you already have). You might actually already have the tiebreaker, do you know if Dr. Judy had it sent to his radiologist to read? I know once upon a time all their MRIs were over-read by their radiologist, not sure how they handle the bone scans.

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Well they both read the scan the same way - the main source of inflammation is clearly the RF coffin bone (pedal osteitis). The difference in opinion is the original injury, vs. what’s secondary. I think based on the history of the horse and the timing of the suspect farrier work, my instinct is Dr. Carter is correct and the foot is the first problem. I’m going with that, as it works with my gut check (it just seems way less likely she hurt her shoulder or neck and then secondarily really hurt her foot). The scale of inflammation was like a big, blinking red siren for the right coffin, and then a handful of mild items that Dr. Carter thought were likely or possibly all secondary to her straining to take weight off the foot. It was, as I understood, a very unambiguous scan based on what looked to be most sore. In other words, a successful bone scan!

The reason the original vet thinks the coffin bone is secondary is because the foot nerve-block tests didn’t resolve the unwillingness to canter right lead under saddle. However, knowing my mare, I can see her being anticipatory of pain, even if nerve blocked, and hopping. Or the hopping is also from secondary muscle pain. The foot block clearly made the low-grade lameness in the trot go away. No other nerve blocks made such a difference.

I don’t want to put the horse through even more rounds of nerve blocking - her foot is obviously very inflamed. That’s getting treated now (I’m asking Dr. Judy for at treatment plan).

It’s awkward to fire a farrier, but yeesh. This really seems like it all came from the damn shoe. She needs good foot work to help heal the foot as well.

OP-Sending you a PM. I hope you soon get closure on this. Such a beautiful mare.

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After dealing with my horse’s rehab I fully believe they think it will hurt - and he also had a bone scan to help diagnose his issue. It was found with US, but we did the bone scan because it was a weird thing. He had torn the fascia coming off his SI. The bone scan confirmed the excruciating pain he was exhibiting - they were very surprised how ‘hot’ it was showing. I’m thinking, no, he’s been telling me loud and clear that IT HURTS.

It showed also that there was nothing else wrong with him, which was kind of nice to know. He healed up after a LONG time, but he completely had issues about worrying about it being painful, so that was something else we had to work through as we dealt with the physical rehab.

Best of luck with your mare.

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Thank you - this really helps to confirm my suspicions. The fact that my horse would start fussing before I even asked for canter, the moment I changed to the right rein - she’s smart in the way that she always tries to guess what you’re going to do. I don’t think the nerve block would have immediately been enough for her not to give me her warning signs again, since she was anxious about the pain. Dr. Judy said something about lameness in the trot being a better test, and canter being more “behavioral”. This also made me think she’s hopping because of what she remembers might be coming next. Like the way they might spook at a spot in the arena that had something scary happen before.

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A vet told me that mares tend to remember past pain more so than geldings.

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Further update for anyone who is curious (I have been complaining in various threads about this mystery minor lameness/behavioral issues for a while!) -

My trainer kindly trailered my mare 90 minutes away so we could use this really great farrier she knows, who she begged to make time for us. He took a look at the horse walking and in like 30 seconds said “well her hind legs are messed up from those shoes…”. Basically it wasn’t just the traumatic pedal osteitis on her RF coffin bone from the failed wedge shoe experiment, but all four feet were not being trimmed/shod very well in this guy’s opinion - her back feet were kept pinched and too narrow, making her wing-out when walking on her hocks. It’s subtle but he picked up on it right away and showed me and my trainer how her feet were being misshapen.

I feel so bad for inadvertently hurting this young horse! I feel less bad about firing my prior farrier - I don’t like to hurt anyone’s feelings and just said we need to move on. I like him personally, but yikes I need to protect my horse. All this (what will probably end up being a full year to bring her back to her original shape) from footwork!

The new farrier’s comments about her hindfeet/ hocks also totally jive with the bone scan findings. The front coffin bone was the biggie on the scan, but Dr. Carter said the hocks were also much more inflamed than he would expect on such a young horse. We thought maybe it was secondary to her trying to get weight off the front foot, but having her back feet pinched and unbalanced/walking funny on her hocks, yeah that’d do it. It was all such subtle stuff but I could see it when he pointed it out to us.

Just another story about the value of a great farrier. Good lord. Why are they so hard to come by?

I totally believe it. My horse has a really good memory, which is great in training in a lot of ways (she picks stuff up fast), but obviously cuts both ways in terms of remembering painful movements. I expect getting her to unlearn being afraid of cantering right under saddle will be a job, when the time comes…