Dr. Deb Bennet's article : True Collection

[mbm]

[QUOTE=nhwr;4176202]
If you have ever had the chance to work with someone who really understands the “Sjef method”, you will find that that the Bennet quote I referenced is a decent, though quite cursory, outline of what this method is and it works in the right hands. I think Bennet is woefully short on actual practical knowledge about to actually achieve the release and seems to totally skip the element of engagement, though.

My point is;
classical training is in the eye of the beholder - it is not so much about what is done but rather who is doing it that defines whether it is classical or not :eek:[/QUOTE]

i dont think you can compare what Dr. Bennett is talking about with what SJ advocates?

in other words: standing flexions are completely different than rollkur. and, as we all know there are many different schools of “classical” dressage . i don’t think even SJ would say he is “classical” in fact he says that classical doesn’t work.

[twofatponies]

[QUOTE=slc2;4174968]
Not even.

This is going to be a ‘classic 100 mile slicky rant’.
…![/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

That was pretty funny. Now I’ll go read the article.

[slc2]

“i can’t even figure out what gait it is doing”

Once at a breed evaluation, a wild young mare came out and was leaping all over the place in a panic (or excitement, perhaps, at all the stallions around), and at one point the announcer decreed, rather generously, I believe, ‘And that is the canter’.

So I shall say, ‘And that is the trot’.

Basically you just pick a moment and say, ‘that’s it, that’s a gait’. Actually I see tons of horses making fair immitations of that Friesian, though most of them are Friesians, LOL. It tends to be exactly the position a great many ads for stallions are in when advertising themselves. The only thing that really has happened, is that the Friesian gait has gotten exaggerated all out of compass - neck pulled in and hiked up, forelegs going like mad…‘and the generals all trailing behind’.

‘it’s basically Sjef’s method’.

I don’t agree with that. Sjef understands dressage and has competed and placed well, and gotten instruction from excellent classical, traditional trainers, he’s just adopted some extreme methods and has a different emphasis. He understands the theory and can ride well, but chooses to emphasize specific things to the exclusion of others, something I don’t care for, but I do recognize that he, rather than not knowing something, learned it, and then started putting his own spin on it. I can’t say that about the other person.

[slc2]

“the hands of the rider are way too high”

In fact, not only does she not criticize that, she says that you need to do that! Get those hands up and in your stomach, people, except when you’re lifting your hands and pushing them toward the horse’s head, to ‘raise the base of the neck’.

While the rest of us fools spend the next 20 years trying to figure out how to straighten our horses, go forward, maintain a trusted, steady connection with our horses, a supple, soft seat and a soft, loose, encouraging leg. It is the activity of the hind quarters, correct half halts, and the basic correctness of the horse and rider that produce collection, raising of the base of the neck…and lightness. The horse’s hind legs do not hold him up because you bend the horse’s neck from left to right. If it was that easy, there’d be a much longer line at the Olympic trials, LOL.

LOL.

[D_BaldStockings]

slc2,
Thank you for taking the time to succinctly go through and expose the massive errors promulgated in this article. I attempted it once and just gave up after the second page as, well, it just isn’t dressage.

Deb Bennett’s PhD. is in Vertebrate Paleontology per her bio here.
http://www.equinology.com/info/instructor.asp?insid=13

The rest?

Anyhow, I just came on to give my opinion that the Friesian’s rider is attempting a canter depart from the position of her hands and the horse’s leg, body and head-neck position…
Appears to be ‘running into it’ via a trot, so no comment on any dressage aspect there.

[slc2]

The concepts she puts forward are common to many who say they have a ‘new message’ and a ‘new dressage’ that you don’t need an instructor for. Teach the horse to ‘move away from pressure’, drop the contact when the horse ‘gives’, get the horse to put its head down and go slow, voila.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=slc2;4176693]
The concepts she puts forward are common to many who say they have a ‘new message’ and a ‘new dressage’ that you don’t need an instructor for…[/QUOTE]

‘common’ has never been a scientific basis for correct. The number and fanaticism level of followers may be a gauge of a person’s charisma, but not necessarily the soundness of their paradigm.

No instructor? While there is certainly a shortage of good ones, it is almost impossible to progress without outside help. Where would the world be without potty training!

[twofatponies]

[QUOTE=slc2;4176693]
The concepts she puts forward are common to many who say they have a ‘new message’ and a ‘new dressage’ that you don’t need an instructor for. Teach the horse to ‘move away from pressure’, drop the contact when the horse ‘gives’, get the horse to put its head down and go slow, voila.[/QUOTE]

Is she coming at this from a western perspective? My impression (non-scientific!) is that what a western rider means by “collection” is not the same as what a dressage rider means, but western-trained trainers don’t always completely get that, when they try to teach across disciplines.

[nhwr]

If you read her article, twofatponies, you will see it is pretty clear she isn’t discussing standing flexions. Bennet discusses this release concept with a mounted rider and uses terms like on the bit, energy transference/recycling. She talks about twirling in the riding light and straight portion of the article.

The comparison is absolutely on point :yes:

Oh the horror, the horror …

[LMH]

slc I would like to tip my hat to you on your laundry post.

That is one the most enjoyable posts I have ever read by you-you were on a ROLL!

[slc2]

“standing flexions totally different from rollkur”

not really.

I think standing flexions are as much a problem as rollkur, actually.

[slc2]

I kept saying to myself, ‘I’ll quit when the dryer buzzer buzzes’.

Turns out the dryer buzzer is not working…

Beware the premise! Beware the premise!

[system]

I’ve run across several ladies who follow Deb Bennett religiously. Go to clinics to ride and dissect horses. Love the idea that they are learning something ‘more classic than competitive dressage’. Read a lot. Talk about it a lot. But the one thing that seemed strange to me… they don’t ride their horses on any kind of regular basis. They are clinic junkies that follow a whole bunch of strange ‘revolutionary’ gurus. They are so busy learning stuff they have a good excuse not to ride, and when they do, they won’t go out of the arena and are afraid to canter. Deb is a wonderful enabler for this type of rider, because she claims you should do a lot of work at walk to learn dressage.

[slc2]

Popcorn? Wine cooler?

[Tamara_in_TN]

@slc2;4176916

Wine cooler?

do they make Bartles and James wildberry anymore?? good stuff that…

best

[ToN_Farm]

I just read the article this thread is about. I was thinking it was an older article that is on her website. She has others on this same topic.

While I agree with most of the faults you all find with what she wrote and teaches, I still think there is some good in that article; enough that I am going to print it out and study it a bit.

I DO think that the term ‘Collection’ means something different to the Western folk. Even in my old hunter days, that term was used to mean (get your horse together).

Regarding hands, Dr. Deb recommends they be at the level of the navel. What’s wrong with that?

Whether her horse is collected or not, it looks pleasant to ride.

[angel]

The picture of her on her paint showed her hands much higher than her navel!:winkgrin: Either than, or she has an an interesting anatomy!

[ToN_Farm]

Angel, the photo on page 12, they are not high. On the earlier photo they are, but they are also incredibly long and loose. Although she is riding English, that is a Western style of rein holding. Whether they are high or low, the fact that there is no contact makes it insignificant, right?

Hey…I don’t ride like she does, but all I’m saying is that I see some good in it. Her horse looks balanced and happy and so does she.

I just don’t think Dr. Deb deserves to be put in the kookie alternative trainer category. She was taught by some of the top Western ODG’s.

[Carol_Ames]

just enough to be DANGEROUS1She uses just enough tevhnical terms, ie., multisyllabic

:eek:I would like to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol:

[Carol_Ames]

wHwHILE WE’RE AT IT…

While WE’RE AT IT; LET’S THROW DR. Judith SHOEMAKER, dR…Kent VASKO, AND EMILY BROMILY INTO THE MIX; NOW THAT WOULD BE AN IMPLOSION ABOUT TO HAPPEN!:lol:

I wouldlove to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol: ___________