wHwHILE WE’RE AT IT…
While we’re at it, let’s throw DR.Judith SHOEMAKER, DR…Kent VASKO, AND EMILY BROMILY INTO THE MIX; now that would be an implosion about to happen:winkgrin:
I would like to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol: ___________
wHwHILE WE’RE AT IT…
ZwHILE WE’RE AT IT; LET’S THROW DR.Judith SHOEMAKER, DR…Kent vASKO, AND EMILY BROMILY INTO THE MIX; now that would be an implosion about to happen:winkgrin:
I would like to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol: ___________
frightening?
Does anyone else find this frightening?:eek:anatomy-based horsemanship clinics designed primarily for owners, trainers, therapists, and breeders. [/FONT]
‘head twirling’
Dressage meets the Exorcist :yes:
Crossley was a great one for explaining collection, but Niggli’s book also has very good diagrams of what a collected stride is.
We have to remember that the most tantalizing, easy, do-it-yourself explanations for ‘dressidge’ ALWAYS have an emotional, visceral appeal, and always contain ‘a granule of dressage’. What we have to be cognizant of is that one appealing element doesn’t make it correct.
When someone tells you ‘it’s easy’, ‘you only have to do one simple thing’, ‘you don’t need the training scale, or levels, or an instructor’, and especially ‘all you need is your girlfriends who love you’, no matter WHAT, no matter what other tidbits you hear, you should be screaming and running in the opposite direction.
If you are served a soup that has ‘just a couple’ flies in it, you don’t say, ‘well, I can spoon around the flies, there ARE, after all, some nice vegetables next to the flies’. The flies being in the soup make a problem for the whole soup!
And flaws in the training affect the entire training. You guys have never been heard to say on this web site, ‘Well, yeah, rollkur really is ugly, but the rest of the training is fine…’
It’s the equestrian equivalent of the used car salesman’s ‘Trust Me’.
And TRUST ME, you will ALSO find, that this kind of declaration, always comes with what you find out later, it isn’t that you don’t need ANY instructor, but that you MUST have THIS instructor, this and only this one forever and ever, because he’s the ONLY one that really has the true word, and all the rest of those guys are bupkiss! They are ALL misled, wrong, deluded, corrupt, blah blah blah! And that’s the truth of that one. Not only this instructor, but these books, these dvd’s and plenty of not-cheap clinic time.
In MOST kinds of riding, a collected gait is a slower gait with the head and neck raised more, without concern to the position of the back or hind legs, but also in most kinds of riding, it is not achieved in the same way as in dressage, and it doesn’t produce the same sort of result. We desperately want to think all types of riding are exactly the same, but the fact is, they aren’t.
In most kinds of riding, the horse is ‘lifted’ with the bit into a collected gait. It doesn’t much matter if he’s straight or if he’s lifted his back. The weight is transferred to the hind quarter by lifting the neck with the reins - the horse learns a ‘cue’, a bump on the mouth off a loose rein, a tug at first one rein and then the other, and it needn’t be rough or even obvious.
Not naming disciplines, but in a driving discipline, the way of getting a horse to take a ‘fancy’ stride with a lift to the knee and hock, was called 'hold 'em and hit ‘em’ - a tight short rein to lift the head and liberal use of the whip.
The horse would tension the muscles of the topline in response to the lifting of the bit and the constraint he was under. He becomes a sort of ‘horse hanging off his back’(muscle tension), instead of a horse whose back is rounded by the hind quarters action, and lifted in front by it.
Do this sometime. Ride a 4th level test or a PSG test on a horse that is not collected enough, or is not straight. Compare how much sweat he has on him after that ride, and then ride him straight and collected enough. Note the difference - the less correct, the more effort the horse has to make (to a point, of course, because the work just is not a breeze, even if totally correct).
Note where the sweat is - on the neck and shoulders, and ask yourself what part of the horse has to make up for it when the horse is crooked or not collected enough - the front end winds up laboring - the shoulder and neck.
The reason we put the horse on the haunches is that his haunches, having huge muscles and huge levers, are far more capable of making that huge mechanical spring, than his front end is. He proves this to us by leveraging his hind quarters when he wants to display himself.
And his hooves and fetlocks don’t hang down limp and relaxed when he’s working on the forehand - only when he’s carrying himself on his haunches, without tensioning the back muscles.
In dressage, we also indeed, create energy and then ‘restrain’ it, but the difference is that we don’t actually lift the neck and head with the reins, we actually spend years creating a great deal of swing, thrusting power, and that it is a very difficult process to provide just barely enough contact and restraint to recycle the energy without inverting the topline. This is the ‘circle of the aids’, the ‘balance of power’, and it is a very delicate balancing act, literally, to ‘coordinate seat, hand and leg’ to the point where we can rather than lifting the head, sit there and watch it happen, without us doing much at all, to actually make it happen.
Instead of lifting the legs through the action of the muscles of neck and shoulder, the ‘top muscles’, the legs are bent and lifted because the hind quarters have taken over the work - and they can do that only when the animal is straight to an incredible degree, with his hind quarters placed exactly behind his shoulders at every moment - if the hind quarters deviate for only a second, the power is lost to one side, the balance is lost, and the animal must once again ‘move by tension, not by power’.
Instead of lifting the head, what is done is to wind a spring of energy up, adn that spring is the gigantic muscles of the hind quarter and back.
In dressage, the horses learns that in response to a half halt, instead of being ‘checked’, instead of slowing down his stride, instead of lifting his neck and head ‘above his back’, he is to increase the bending of the joints of his hind legs. All we can do is remind the horse to put his head and neck where the current development of his back and hind quarters allows him to, which is a big judgement call, and another place where a knowledgeable expert comes in handy.
The half halt is the secret to everything in dressage. If the horse merely ‘checks’ (as a ‘rein half halt’ might do in other riding sports), if he slows down his hind leg, if he pauses his hind leg, the cycle of the aids is broken right there, and collection without tension becomes less possible, not more.
The fundamental difference in dressage is the half halt. The horse is taught by association to engage his hind leg. In the most rudimentary first schooling he MAY be slowing down, but not because that’s the goal, and the key is that he sits on his hind leg, even if only a slight bit more, and he bends it, and is immediately sent forward. He learns to engage his hind leg in response to the half halt. Eventually he learns a half halt isn’t about slowing down at all, but about sitting on his hind leg and winding that big spring of energy.
And you can see a half halt. It is not some mysterious, spiritual thing - you can see it, you can see EVERY half halt - that works, that is! If it works you can see it. The hind leg bends - it is that simple.
The difference in the collected vs the working gait is so incredible by the time one gets to GP, that the horse canters along looking perfectly fluid and energetic, yet he gains less ground to the front and has a rounder stride; even though it looks perfectly ‘normal’, without any exaggerated lifting of the neck and head by the shoulder muscles, without slowing, shuffling, pausing, jerking or bobbing up and down (or, most importantly, ‘patting the ground’ without energy from the hind legs), there is a big difference in how much ground he covers. It is because of the shape of the stride, and the shape of stride is possible because of a very, very simple classical principle - you put the hind quarters exactly behind the shoulders, do correct half halt, and the horse can ‘carry’ himself on his haunches.
And often rather suddenly giving him that knowlege and power turns him into a very, very naughty horse. No one should be surprised.
Teaching a horse this is NOT usually the ‘quiet ride’ or the patter in the park Bennett pretends it should be. The reaction should be that the animal revels in his new found power like a teenager who just got the keys to Dad’s Porsche. In plain English, he should actually start acting like a complete ass, and it should take quite some time to cool down that exhuberance, but it should never be entirely extinguished. He should suddenly feel like he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, and he should be ecstatic. Suddenly, he feels just as good under saddle as he does when running around in a field.
The training of the horse is really like a pyramid. The basic fundamentals make up a strong base, and each training ‘block’ is put on top of that foundation.
We develop all the elements in concert, the activity, the balance, the rider’s position, suppleness. And the thing we hear all the time as we learn is ‘too much of that’, and ‘too little of this’, we are really like a conductor conducting a big orchestra, come on brass, come on strings, not so much percussion, come on more percussion, and trying to get all the instruments in the orchestra to play in balance, together.
And that, that togetherness that makes dressage so beautiful, is precisely what makes it so hard, and precisely what makes instruction so valuable, because it teaches us to be a better conductor.
Why do we need levels? Because what we did at the previous level is not sufficient. You were straight at training level, didn’t you think? You were supple at training level, didn’t you think? You could sit and follow the gaits at training level, didn’t you think? But when you try the next thing, all of a sudden, it’s not enough, and it’s like you suddenly realize you’re still learning how to ride!
How about it is the same at first level, and second, and third, and on up? We remake ourselves every day, and every day, what we did yesterday isn’t good enough. That’s dressage, and that’s why we need the levels.
If the foundation is weak, you cannot build the next level. But without improving change and growing, you can’t build the next level either.
Fun stuff, and why one great old master (Neckermann, I think), when told by his doctor he was too crippled up to ride any more (at 72, I think), he protested, ‘but I have so much yet left to learn!’
[QUOTE=Nawda Ponygirl;4176891]
I’ve run across several ladies who follow Deb Bennett religiously. Go to clinics to ride and dissect horses. Love the idea that they are learning something ‘more classic than competitive dressage’. Read a lot. Talk about it a lot. But the one thing that seemed strange to me… they don’t ride their horses on any kind of regular basis. They are clinic junkies that follow a whole bunch of strange ‘revolutionary’ gurus. They are so busy learning stuff they have a good excuse not to ride, and when they do, they won’t go out of the arena and are afraid to canter. Deb is a wonderful enabler for this type of rider, because she claims you should do a lot of work at walk to learn dressage.[/QUOTE]
Oh Heaven’s!, doncha know, they’re all over the place, looking down their noses at us old fools who will never know “classical dressage”, and actually trailride our horses:eek: Not restricted to the female of the species either. :lol:
Well, I’m not too certain about her comments on Baucher flexions and the reference to “twirling” but she certainly has misunderstood Fillis’ flexions. His involved no “rotation” and definitely required that the jaw “give” at the same time. The flexion required a mobilisation of the tongue and jaw so it was definitely flexion not “twirling”.
Don’t you mean “classic slicky cut-n-paste” display?
Just because you can cut and paste doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. If you spent half the time riding your horse that you do riding your keyboard, you might actually learn something about horses.
Do they let you keep your CDE manure pony at the asylum? Or is he just one of your SIM horses that you discuss at Group Therapy with the other inmates?
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;4176715]
While there is certainly a shortage of good ones, it is almost impossible to progress without outside help. Where would the world be without potty training![/QUOTE]
Case in point:
slc I would like to tip my hat to you on your laundry post. That is one the most enjoyable posts I have ever read by you-you were on a ROLL!
Yes her mad-googling-skillz were put to the test, weren’t they. [rolleyes]
He’s one of my SIM horses I discuss with the other inmates. He’s part liger, pretty much my favorite animal. Has magic powers.
Have a nice day.
:lol::lol::lol:
There’s no cutting and pasting going on. It’s just the same basic, simple principles, it’s not exactly brain surgery.
[QUOTE=2WBs1TB;4179187]
Don’t you mean “classic slicky cut-n-paste” display?
Just because you can cut and paste doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. If you spent half the time riding your horse that you do riding your keyboard, you might actually learn something about horses.
Do they let you keep your CDE manure pony at the asylum? Or is he just one of your SIM horses that you discuss at Group Therapy with the other inmates?[/QUOTE]
Would you please explain exactly what SLC said that you disagree with and why ? That would contribute to the discussion.
I personally think Dr. B is confusing connection with collection.
Can you explain that more?
Wow, just Wow :eek:.
All these years of riding with trainers and I have completely missed the boat :lol:.
I’m running right out to the circus supply store so that I can get one of them collection-teaching drums so that I can achieve collection in a much more fun and effective way. To hell with the training scale :D.
I knew Deb Bennett way back when we were both at Potomac Horse Center, and I’ve never understood her fame or appeal. She seemed to be someone who thought she knew it all, once lecturing me about horse colors :lol: I never once saw her ride (not saying she didn’t, I just never saw it 
)
Note where the sweat is - on the neck and shoulders, and ask yourself what part of the horse has to make up for it when the horse is crooked or not collected enough - the front end winds up laboring - the shoulder and neck
Remind me to always log in before viewing so the nonsense I have on ignore doesn’t show up.
Just as an example, when there are flies in the soup, it spoils the whole soup. And when there is misinformation in a post, the whole post might as well be thrown in the cr@pper.
Sweat may or may not indiciate where the horse or athlete is labouring more. Funny thing, when I am walking fast, my head sweats. But when I am thinking, it doesn’t . I suppose I must be using my head more when I walk! Or for heaven’s sake, my armpits sweat when I am walking too. Those armpit muscles must be getting a work out- right? The place that doesn’t sweat much when I am walking are my legs- so I suppose I am not using them correctly. Funny , they get me where I am going…
The horse’s neck area is a broad radiator for heat- more surface area than substance compared to other areas of the body, and very well supplied with both sweat glands and circulation. It is one of the most efficient areas for a horse to rid itself of excess heat. It does not indicate that the horse is labouring more in front. What twaddle.
Just like our heads- very well endowed with sweat glands and circulation and the most efficient area to rid ourselves of excessive heat, hence we sweat on our heads even when we’re not using them. Your head sweating yet?
Articles like this infuriate me, because they assume all horses start with the exact same prototype, but due to bad/good riding, this prototype changes to the ideal or unideal horse.
Some horses have short necks, fat necks, built downhill, etc… and some horses are built for dressage (or collection) not that I agree with her interpretation of collections, whereas others are aimed towards other things, like speed.
I don’t always agree with what you write, Catonlap, but don’t stoop to such things.
Yes, the neck is a general place for radiating heat.
And sweating should take place based on exertion and heat, or the animal has some health problem.
And a horse that is working harder because it is too long, or crooked (while trying to do work that requires a certain amount of collection or straightness), does, in fact, sweat more on specific places on its body, and differently than it normally does.
Horses sweat. That’s true. But I feel that, when it is working more correctly, you will see less sweat and better distributed sweat.
Too, horses even will sweat harder on one side of their neck, you are going to suggest that’s because the neck is a general place for radiating heat too? I feel it has to do with what muscles are generating more heat. They will sweat on one side depending on training issues.
I think the pattern of the sweat on an animal can be a very helpful indicator in training. True, each animal has a pattern of sweating that’s normal for it, but observing where the animal sweats and when and how that changes, is quite helpful.
You don’t think so? That doesn’t bother me.
I admire people like Dr Bennett for her ideas, if not all are quite realistic.
I do quote her articles to many with questions, not because they are the last word and to be learned by heart and obeyed on faith, but because they tend to start people quesioning what they know and looking for more answers.
THAT is what is good in the work that Dr Bennett and others like her do, that don’t really work to train, compete and become really knowledgeable in any discipline.
Since such “academic” people do know so much and much more than most of the rest of us in some ways, sometimes they tend to feel that others just don’t know much and dismiss the rest of the world off hand.
There really is a middle ground there, where much is to be learned from everyone, but the student needs to become more selective, which gets easier the more we learn.
We may find that some teachers insist on are more a theory in search of proof than reality gives credence to.
Some of Dr Bennett’s ideas may fall in that category.
I would say that some people, when they interact with horses all day long DOING something, training and riding and competing at something, compared with doing a little here and sitting back and observing and never really working day after day after day with horses as you both are doing something, there tends to be a disconnect with what really works with most horses and what is theory
Just as there is a disconnect with those that may have “trained” horses all their lives to just ride, but didn’t learn the technical aspects behind what they and the horses do.
One example, a very good colt starter that can ride the hide off any horse, as they say here, but has never understood what leads are.
Such a person can’t do much else than get from point A to B on a horse, although he can probably do that and get there on a rank horse better than most.:yes:
The more we know, the more we know we don’t know and also the more we can tell when someone is really knowledgeable about what they are talking about and when they are mostly guessing or outright missing the mark, as we truly know better.
I think that Dr Bennett has her limits and the more technical knowledge dressage, reining or other technical disciplines require is obviously one of those, to anyone familiar with that kind of knowledge in depth.
I think those are very perceptive observations.
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