Dr. Hillary Clayton

[rileyt]

The issue of biomechanic “research” on horses came up on greypony’s thread about the training scale, and I’d like people’s thoughts.

Evidently, Dr. Clayton has done some research that shows that when a horse’s head and neck stretch forward/out/down, there is more weight transferred to the front end.

I have not seen this research, but here is what my gut tells me, and here is why I think it may be of limited use in the context of riding dressage horses:

It is a simple matter of physics, that when a horse takes his 75 pound head and stretches it forward, that it will shift his balance. At least, unless he is compensating with some other part of his body.

I must admit, the few studies I have seen from Dr. Clayton seem like very inexact forms of “science” to me. I think primarily because she’s using horses instead of humans, and you can’t tell a horse “OK, keep all four feet on the ground and lift your nose 6 inches”. Research can only be as good as the data going in, and from what I’ve seen, I’m skeptical to say the least.

Specifically, I’m skeptical as to how much (if at all) her “scientific findings” really apply in dressage, (or many other forms of riding), where the horse’s balance and way of going is such a product of who is in the saddle, and how he’s riding.

So, SLC (and now Windsong Eq., whom I have great respect for) both have mentioned this study in, what I thought was the context of “long and low”.

I have always been taught that in a CORRECT long and low, the horse should not lose its balance, nor tip onto the forehand. From a physics perspective, I think of it as an umbrella with shallower, or deeper sides. When we ride “normally”, the horse’s topline should look like an umbrella, gently curved over the top. When we ride “long and low”, we’re not just extending ONE side (the front side) of the umbrella (which certainly would cause the horse to tip on his forehand), but instead we’re extending BOTH sides of the umbrella… with a corresponding lift in the back, and loading of the hind limbs, to compensate for the forward/downward stretch with the head and neck.

So, I’m curious as to what Windsong Eq. (and any others) think of my understanding… did I misunderstand what you said? Or is the L program teaching something different? In addition, have any of you seen Dr. Clayton’s research on this matter, and what are your opinions?

[Ghazzu]

I think her measurements are probably more accurate than your gut.

[rileyt]

Actually Ghazzu, as someone clarified on the other thread, her experiment was done with a stationary horse. That’s fine, although I don’t think I would’ve needed a science experiment to show me that when a horse leans his head and neck one way, it will affect his weight distribution.

I think her study may be very informative for some purposes… but a discussion of “long and low” doesn’t seem to be one of them. That’s all I wanted to know.

[ideayoda]

Since the research is often on what is winning (rather carriage all (trainers or judges) might agree is correct telescoping of the neck from a balanced position in the first place) then the increased weight onto the forehand is a likely reality. Its like a study based upon winning horses for their piaffe balance (vs a group of perfected piaffes) or levade (when it is pesade). Even stationary, is the neck arched out or flat? Is the base of support parked out or gathered? Too what degree it is taken? A hollow horse can put more weight on the forehand than a horse properly seeking the hand. So many details which influence balance/lightness/etc.

[grayarabpony]

If there is increased weight on the forehand it is counterbalanced by more carrying behind.

[monstrpony]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3298025]
If there is increased weight on the forehand it is counterbalanced by more carrying behind.[/QUOTE]

Get thee to a Phyics 101 class. This can only be the case if the horse spontaneously gains weight when he puts his head low. It’s a zero-sum situation and if weight goes onto the forehand, it must come off of the haunches.

If there is increased push from behind, because the posture allows him to be more efficient with his haunches, it is still possible that the forehand will feel elevated by that increased push. Perhaps that is what you mean?

[atlatl]

I think the op had it right; if you think of the horse as a closed mechanical system, the center of gravity is going to change if the horse “just” puts his head down without any compensating changes in the remainder of the system, ie. lifting his back, tucking his butt.

If the horse’s hind legs are trailing out behind and he puts his head down, yes, the cg is shifted more towards the frontend.

I like Rooney’s book, the Lame Horse, as he actually draws the limb structures as would a mechanical engineer; levers, springs and dampers.

[Equibrit]

Maybe you could point out the study in question; http://www.cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/copy_of_publications
Just so that we are all on the same page. Unless you know how the study was set up, it is pretty ridiculous to dispute it.

[Denali]

Biomechanics research is a very complicated beast. Even in human research where the subject can be more easily directed to follow a strict protocol, the system (our body) is very complex and so mathematically, assumptions must be made. The computations get amazingly complicated; trust me, I have written code to analyze the MOST basic of forceplate and 3D gait analysis data! Ever considered if the moment of inertia of a limb segment can be considered constant?? Or can you measure or account for friction within the joint, or assume it is frictionless? Then lets talk about filtering out noise from the digital signals…

Technologically it is not possible, yet, to account for all the variables in the massive bio sytem of a ridden horse all at once. Real science has to bite off small pieces, ask small questions, prove small things before moving on to the next small piece of the huge picture. The real error (now I have not read the study in question, so I’m being general here) is in the interpretation of the research. A single study, on a small group of horses, in one lab, one time can’t be considered gospel. It is simply one piece of the puzzle. Under conditions xyz with horses abc these results were measured.

I learned a valuable lesson (or 50) in my Master’s defense. Do not underestimate the power of the human eye and instinct (or gut!). This applies here. Do not underestimate the value of what a talented, experienced rider feels. Science can enhance our understanding of these things, but one study should not have every rider out there damning the benefit of long and low riding.

On the flip side, don’t damn the research. It’s friggin hard!

[mp]

Where’s that handclapping icon?

Good job, Denali. Excellent summation.

[Elegante_E]

Having spoken with Dr. Clayton about her research and how some of it is done, she is using scientific methods. She also has worked with some of the best dressage riders in the country to learn as much as she can about horses and balance.

I think the OP’s use of quotation marks to infer that Dr. Clayton isn’t a scientist is rather insulting and uneducated. At least, the good doctor is working to learn more about our equine friends. To insult her for it is small minded.

[Tonja]

rileyt wrote:

I have always been taught that in a CORRECT long and low, the horse should not lose its balance, nor tip onto the forehand.
The horse must remain up through its withers (and up through the spine, both behind and in front of the withers) when it goes forward and down, otherwise the horse just drops its neck and looses self carriage.

[merrygoround]

Methinks there is a lot of hairsplitting going on here. In doing long and low the rider must keep the horse tracking up, the rider must look up and keep his shoulders back.

The whole point being to allow the horse to stretch throughout his frame, and to demonstrate that the rider is able to allow the horse to stretch through his back, and then come back to a more rounded “frame”. That the horse is not"stuck" in a rounded “frame”.

[grayarabpony]

Gee monstrpony, what you said is what I said. Feel smarter now? No wonder dressage people all hate each other.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=rileyt;3297998]
Actually Ghazzu, as someone clarified on the other thread, her experiment was done with a stationary horse. That’s fine, although I don’t think I would’ve needed a science experiment to show me that when a horse leans his head and neck one way, it will affect his weight distribution.

I think her study may be very informative for some purposes… but a discussion of “long and low” doesn’t seem to be one of them. That’s all I wanted to know.[/QUOTE]

This about sums it up. To say that the weight distribution tips forward when a horse is standing still and puts his head and neck down is one thing, if he’s moving it’s quite another. When the horse is moving and stretching properly the push and carry from behind and from use of the abs will lift the horse’s shoulders up even while his head and neck are down.

Monstrpony, physics 101 is that way. (pointing right)

[Ghazzu]

@grayarabpony;3298648

This about sums it up. To say that the weight distribution tips forward when a horse is standing still and puts his head and neck down is one thing, if he’s moving it’s quite another. When the horse is moving and stretching properly the push and carry from behind and from use of the abs will lift the horse’s shoulders up even while his head and neck are down.

Monstrpony, physics 101 is that way. (pointing right)

any measurement of the distribution of the mass of the animal is valid for the moment at which the measurement was taken.
In a standing horse, it may remain the same over a relatively long time interval. In a moving horse, it is not going to remain static, by definition. So, depending on at what phase of the stride the measurement is made, the center of mass will be displaced more or less forward.

[monstrpony]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3298635]
Gee monstrpony, what you said is what I said. Feel smarter now? No wonder dressage people all hate each other.[/QUOTE]

The distinction between pushing and carrying is not trivial, particularly in this discussion.

[Equa]

Have a look at the photo on the front page of Richard Weis’ site

www.richardweis.com

Richard (who is a genius, and who knows how to ride long and low btw) could have a lot of fun trying to replicate Dr Clayton’s findings using his own “balance of power” system - also obviously only measurable at the halt.

[Sabine]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3298025]
If there is increased weight on the forehand it is counterbalanced by more carrying behind.[/QUOTE]

Actually I would like to point out again that the real key for a healthy functioning dressage horse are the muscle strands running along the bottom of the barrel that have to contract in order to allow a relaxed forward downward stretch. It is those muscles that truly prevent the horse from falling on his face and they create the famous circle of energy- that if it flows without too many barriers- the horse will be straight, back up, and swingy…all qualities we seek in a good dressage horse.

In my book the stretch does not have to be over exaggerated but should release from the withers and involve a marked raise of the back under the saddle.

The validity of Hilary’s experiments are outside of my knowledge as I am not a scientist.
I do believe that measuring these qualities in motion however could produce a valuable result and interesting statistics in regards to the ability of the horse to use different parts of its body in conjunction to produce a ‘healthy’ exercise…just like we can do when we go to the gym and work out with a trained expert.

[grayarabpony]

I did mention use of abs… (in a later post) Yes, I agree completely with the horse using his abs and swinging his back and the circle of energy – that’s what enables him to stretch and not fall on his face. I think a horse doing that also starts the process of carrying himself and not just pushing. A study with a stationary horse cannot demonstrate that.