Draft hitch accident

[winfieldfarm]

uuhhhh…I am a little insulted about the Arab to Perch description based soley on two totally different videos. This may get me flamed but let’s remember that we are talking not only about different breeds doing different things but two single incidents that were also very different.

Mainly - the draft stopped, struggled and fell down. The Arab clamped its tail, started bucking and bolted. Huge difference between the two and yes, I would find it much easier to race in to a down horse and keep it down versus catch up to a runaway.

And yes, lots of hysterical spectators gasping and screaming as a horse bolts around a ring panic stricken. I imagine if it had happened the same at the draft show, the reaction would have been the same. If that draft team would have ditched it’s driver, the danger level would have risen considerably. I’m not belittling the fast response by the folks in the draft video AT ALL. They all did a great job and the horses reacted very well. But let’s face it. Bolting horses are much much scarier and out of control. Remember the video of the 4 in hand drafts that cut loose at that city parade and jumped the barricade?

[Quelah]

winfield, I didn’t mean any offense to Arabs in horses or their people in specificity, if you’re directing your comment to me. Love the horses and spent a lot of time around the people growing up.

I was making a sweeping generalization about light horse ring wreck reactions vs the reactions at draft shows, it’s been my personal experience that people at draft shows are much quicker to get involved, and be effective in doing so, than people at light horse shows, be it pleasure or CDEs.

Allegedly, if you watch the Animal Planet special on the Arab show wreck, the horse may have been stung by a bee. That’s a not uncommon thing to blame a nutting up incident on, I know I’ve used it And sometimes, horses have horse moments. My point, that I’ll stand by, is that the first horse losing it at the Arab show, was a horse moment. The second wreck, and the cascade that followed, were human error.

I think that the fact that all the horses in that Country Pleasure class went on to drive another day, speaks well to the horses and their drivers.

[fivehorses]

[QUOTE=Quelah;5451374]
My understanding from people who were there is that the L lead horse had what I call a fainting goat moment, .[/QUOTE]

That is what I thought I saw too. I didn’t quite understand how Windfield farm and the OP saw the lines tangled, but thought they may have seen something I could not. In the video you can hear the crowd gasp before the video is on the horses, and then you see a horse sort of keeling over is what I saw anyhow.

Interesting that could have happened, and how frightening if that is what did happen.

I think Quelah is trying to explain that when you have a 6 or 8 hitch, it isn’t a one person job, or even a 2 person job.
Each horse has to get harnessed(very heavy) and be held while they get hitched up to the hitch.
Plus, grooming, mane and tail, etc.

Plus, dealing with heavy horses vs light horses is night and day(I have both).
I try and explain to people, my draft is = to two of my lights.

Anyhow, we can all agree that the handlers, the crowd and grounds crew did a great job. Never mind how calm and controlled the rest of the hitch was.

[COLORADO]

Does anyone know the breeder/farm of that Percheron team or can provide a website link? Very impressive team! Thanks.

[winfieldfarm]

Not trying to start a fight…just throwing my two cents on the pile.

When I watched the draft video, I went second by second. There is a second when the film comes back to the hitch in trouble and it appears that the L Leader’s right rein is caught over the housing of the R Leader’s collar. Imagine a time when you have seen a horse overreact to constant and severe bit pressure. They can often struggle then stiffen and feel compelled to go up and fall down. Can’t comment on the fainting goat syndrome as I am unaware of it in horses. But the video, just what I THINK I see. Hard to tell.

The biggest difference between the two vids, Arab and Draft, the loss of driver in the vehicle. Arab video, horse bolts, bucks and dumps driver. Draft hitch, Driver never looses control of the team. I dont’ believe that these two incidents could be compared equally because the main matter of control, the driver, is not the same. I bring up the point again of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zplcjafDYc

And as an Arab trainer, let me be very clear that I am in no way defending the Arab video. That was a train wreck for sure. But let’s not forget that several drivers and horses did remain calm and controlled in the midst of all that chaos, amateur drivers at that. let’s call a spade a spade. Good crowd control and human intervention is directly related to the horses reactions and behavior, regardless of breed of size.

[enjoytheride]

I imagine had the draft team bolted and ran the outcome would have been similar if not worse then the arab video, if you notice someone DID try and step out to stop the arab and got flattened in the process. There isn’t a whole lot of room in that ring with those huge draft horse rigs.

That parade video, despite being very blurry, is horrific.

[winfieldfarm]

that’s my point exactly with the parade video. A bolting horse or team of horses is a whole 'nother ball of wax than the leader collapsing in place after what sounded like a few seconds of struggling. And let’s not forget the video of the four in hand that bumped its whole crew out, driver, grooms and all and raced off over the hill at that competition overseas. Remember that? Someone had the balls to reach out and grab hold of the leader on the hoof and we all talked about how dumb and dangerous that was, how he could have been trampled.

so if it’s alright with everyone else, I’m going to take the stand that it’s not the breed, the discipline, or the people at the competition. It’s the nature of the accident and the speed at which it escalates that determines the general reaction. Sometimes the peeps involved can get the accident under control quickly, sometimes they can’t.

[katie_tru]

I recall someone saying that in the Arab video that his tail crupper was much too tight and she believed that that set him off…

[Rudy]

Figured I would post this video…

Lead percheron team of a 6-up get loose and run through the arena with other hitches…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uhID7H8THc

To me it is kind of amazing to see how well even this was handled. You can see the teamsters maneuvering their hitches to better get out of the way. For the most part everything was calm and there was an entire herd of people trying to stop the leaders.

[Sabovee]

Great reaction by the announcer - he deserves a gold star for keeping the audience calm and immediately quiet.

The horses, other drivers and other support members handled this flawlessly.

[Ainsley]

@Quelah;5451374

My understanding from people who were there is that the L lead horse had what I call a fainting goat moment, a friend of mine (hi Joan )calls them Clydesdale moments, where for reasons that vary, the horses just sort of get overwrought, and stop, fuss, and sometimes fall down.

I am one of the people who was at ring-side when this happened and Quelah, you have hit the nail on the head here. This same horse actually went down earlier in the day in the cart class…in exactly the same manner. I will say that he was equally well behaved in the first incident as he is in the second.

The judge, Randy Robertson (arguably one of the best draft trainers today), is one of the first people “on the scene” in both incidents and when I asked him about it after, he also felt that there wasn’t any equipment malfunction or problems, but that the horse had simply cut off his own air. It is possible that when he tossed his head upwards “in the moment”, his rein did become caught on his pair’s collar, but I don’t believe that is what caused the problem in the first place.

Athough it was scary, Peter Doubleday (the announcer) is exceptional at his job and has been around for so long that he is able to keep the crowds (there are many horsey and non-horsey people in the stands) calm and quiet during moments of high stress.

Having been involved in a couple of frightening moments in this same ring (as a driver and as a rescuer), my hat goes off to the people who are not only brave enough to jump in and help, but also knowlegeable enough to do some good.

[winfieldfarm]

Okay, Ainsley, so that brings to light some more questions. Why did the horse “cut off his own air”? And if so, if this something that happens to drafts?

Weird… fainting goat it is.

And yes, Peter D is the best.

[JackieBlue]

He definitely went down in a way that would be consistent with “fainting”. His momentary stiffness, the neck position, evident confusion, etc… Is this a common occurrence with teams such as this? I would think it would be inconvenient at least to have your 1 ton power sources dropping like flies. :eek:

[Cielo_Azure]

The hitch was All Star Farms and the incident brought tears to my eyes as I watched people I know, who have jumped in from the stands and ringside to help manage the situation.

I don’t believe that All Star Farms has a web site but they have some of the best halter and hitch horses in the business. They are wonderful people, with a lot of kids -who are in all the junior classes offered. A really, truly great draft horse family.

I watched a draft cart accident at NC in 2007 (a class I scratched at the last moment ) and it was a run away, after a cart tipped -too tight of a curve and going too fast and the women was thrown out (Fractured her back) but the horse running away was over in a flash. Because knowledgable people were in there in a blink of an eye doing everything right. The horse was calmed, the audience went dead silent and situation was over in a flash -with EMT at ringside and an ambulance arriving within minutes. But the big thing was having those guys (many were the same exhibitors you saw in this video) manage to calm and take control of the horse and the situation. During that accident, other exhibitors stopped, and if and when safe -a few went to the middle. Some stayed on the rail -it they weren’t in the way.

That is what is just amazing about showing drafts -there are always extra eyes and hands to help. Volunteer help that knows what they are doing. People work together, train their competitors and keep watch for each other.

[winfieldfarm]

Cielo, I’m really interested to know. What causes the horse to faint? Is this common in drafts?

I am not making light of the situation at all but it did set a funny image to my head of the other five horses seeing their cohort going down and them thinking, " oh geez, there goes Mildred again…"

In respect to the breed comparison, do you all think it has more so to do with the fact that draft breeds tend to specialize in driving versus light breed shows where driving is one small division amongst many under saddle ones. Therefore, the experience level of all involved both horse and handlers is much greater at the draft shows than the light breeds. I will defend my arab breed to the death but I will admit that even I can’t stand to watch our breed driving classes as so many horses are hitched wrong and there is poor driving happening. I much prefer the Sport Horse Carriage division to the Pleasure Driving classes as I feel the company I keep in those classes is better prepared.

There are so many variables involved in a driving accident. It’s impossible to make sweeping statements, even as I have just now.

Let’s just all agree that driving accidents suck.

[Cielo_Azure]

Winfield -

I wrote about fainting last night, but then deleted that part as I don’t want to be negative…you asked, so I will write about why I think (my opinion, not fact).

At our Perry show last Oct (within a month of this show), a Belgian horse fainted in cart class (was excused) and then was put back into the hitch class -where he fainted partially but didn’t fall all the way down. The judge did not see it. I did not see it, although I was watching the class as it was after our performance but others did and many people were talking about it.

I did listen in to one of the owners talking about it, who said that the horse is great unless the judge makes them go around the ring too many times -and then he faints. At that point, I kind of lost of respect but what are you going to do? In the draft business, if you speak out too much -you soon don’t have any friends left at all.

Two horses, different breeds -fainting in hitch classes. hhhmmm coincidence, I think not. What I am about to write is speculation on my part but I think this is what is going on.

In the hitch business, for conditioning (which is why the hitch horses look outrageously great -they are worked to condition by heavy pulling and there is probably steroid use in SOME hitches also): horses are hooked to a heavy sled, with tight overchecks and they pull for 20 minutes until they are in a total lather. Builds muscle fast. Builds neck muscle too. This is done starting at age 2 or 3 years old, and many end up winded. The nerve gets damaged from those overchecks -this is across draft hitch breeds, so I do not believe it is genetic but from the training methods used. This is very common knowledge -I am not off my rocker for writing this. Most hitch horses are done with their hitch careers by age 6 or 7, according to a famous judge (again, not just my opinion), who wrote this in the draft horse journal recently. It is hard on the horses. They end up winded, with side bone, ring bone, etc. If you want a sound draft, don’t buy an ex-hitch horse! That said, most of these hitch horses do end up with a secondary career -light trail riding, light farm work, as brood mares or noncompetitive pleasure driving.

Anyway-

If you watch that video again -look at how tight those overchecks are. When the lead horse that didn’t go down is led out, you can really see how tight he is checked. The tight overcheck really makes those horses pick up their feet (picking up the feet means winning -it is that simple) and if the horses aren’t checked tight, many judges consider them improperly harnessed. Think about a horse partially or totally winded, then being checked up like that. I think the connection to overchecks, being winded and then the occasional horse fainting is pretty obvious! I am not writing that this is common, it is not but I think that is probably what happened.

Once show season starts, trading out horses isn’t so easy. Six horses, all matching in color and gait, sized correctly to their partner. You can’t just switch them out for another horse, as lead, swing and wheelers all have different size requirements. So, they often use horses that probably shouldn’t be used and will sometimes rely on drugs to hide issues. There is a lot of money of the line (the prize money is big) plus, for the paid drivers, their jobs are on the line. Just like a football coach needs a certain number of wins. Pull out of the season early, and job security will disappear.

---

About draft hitches. These guys who drive the big hitches are professionals! Some come from families that have been driving for eons -sometimes a 100 years or more! Many of the drivers are paid by the owners of the hitch -the drivers are the managers too -they are in charge of buying, training, condition and driving. They drive for the owners (people and corporations like the founder of Ameritrade, Cape Cod Siding (major supplier of construction materials in the USA/CA), American Family Insur, Ames Construction (builds high rises), etc. Some are driven by the owners also. Bottom line, training, developing and driving these hitches is their whole life. It is all they do, all they dream about -

Some of those breed driving classes that I watch on youtube-I cringe at too.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=winfieldfarm;5455731]

In respect to the breed comparison, do you all think it has more so to do with the fact that draft breeds tend to specialize in driving versus light breed shows where driving is one small division amongst many under saddle ones. Therefore, the experience level of all involved both horse and handlers is much greater at the draft shows than the light breeds.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if there might be a little bit of the same sort of thing you see sometimes in large versus small dogs, also, where (sane) people expect manners right from the very start in large breed puppies, because they know that said puppy is going to become huge and hard to handle in short order, whereas smaller dogs (even owned by people who should really know better) sometimes get away with more for longer because it doesn’t seem like a major problem?

(Obviously, even a small full grown horse is larger than most large breed dogs, but as a perception issue - there is a BIG size difference between an Arabian and a full-sized draft horse, after all.)

[Rodeio]

[QUOTE=Quelah;5451374]

To cost- it can vary, a lot. The horse could be anywhere from 10-90K a piece, the harness from 3-10K per horse, the wagons from ~15-50K. Sometimes the bottom range can be lower, you can find a deal here and there. The upper range is the wagons and the leaders of the top horses in the country.[/QUOTE]

The Jackson Fork Ranch hitch wagon is rumored to have cost $100,000. I saw it up close at the MN State Fair, it is a nice wagon but holy smokes.

[Donkaloosa]

The draft horses in those big hitches are amazingly calm and sensible through a lot of problems. I was watching a 6-horse hitch class one evening when a hitch pin broke. People did come out and held the horses, but one person had to crawl in and around and replace the hitch pin — in the show ring, at a fair. The Belgians stood like rocks. Everyone of the hitches in this video is drop dead gorgeous. And that Percheron team who had the horse fall…I just loved their turn out. I’m glad things went so well.

[Quelah]

And don’t get too sucked into the “Gentle Giant” thing, some of those horses are HOT! Though you are correct, they are trained, and they are handled. My husband has several times been amongst the hooked 6, or standing on the tongue, to make adjustments.