Draft hitch accident

I don’t drive at all, whatsoever, so please excuse this comment if it’s unfounded or illogical…

But isn’t it a little… dangerous??.. to have a horse that’s known to faint (went down already in an earlier class at the same show??) as the lead horse on a large hitch in a very crowded arena? I understand that this is the RWF, so all horses involved must be extremely seasoned, reliable creatures… but it seems like having a “fainter” as a lead horse in a setting such as this presents a pretty severe danger to not only himself and his own team, but every other person/horse in the immediate vicinity.

Seems like it was handled extremely well, regardless, and that the outcome was okay for everyone…

I drive Clydesdales, and have been around (and in the arena with) some of the large hitches. First of all, you need to know that the calmness you see exhibited by the horses is due in a large part to training. They are NOT dullards, and can be quite “hot.” In fact, the hot ones are the ones who sometimes have a “fainting” moment. They get VERY amped up, and in hitch classes, they are fitted with what is called a check bit. Some of the hitches, in my opinion, check the horses WAY too high, resulting in a hitch that sounds like a pid of beached whales as it goes by. Some of the drafts have been known to get so excited and have their heads so high in the air, they basically swallow their tongue. That cuts of the air, horse “faints” then tongue goes back to its normal place and horse is fine. There is actually a device you can make to tie down a horse’s tongue during the class to keep them from swallowing it. I have seen it done and it works. But you need to get in there quickly in the line-up and get it off before the judge asks you to back. Quelah is absolutely right about most hitch horses having short careers. Both of mine are now 7, but I have been very conservative and I am certainly not in the “big leagues” or showing enough to break my guys down. I have actually shown in a hitch class without check bits, driving a pair, and it was very difficult. But I think some people count on the check bits way too much. And as to the origon of the term “Clydesdale moment” they usually don’t faint. They either fall down out of sheer clumsiness, or they can’t figure out what you want, so they lay down. Usually they are fine once they get back up.

well, that is just sad. and it’s another fine example of humans stepping in a screwing up something good. When it comes to horse showing, there’s corruption in every ring, in every breed.

With regards to checking up - this is also very common in the Saddlebred industry, of which I can speak from inside experience. Many trainers overuse and abuse the check bit to get the horses heads up higher. But the fainting issue is not somegthing I have ever seen in that breed. Wonder why?

WHat was so amazing was that it took 1 minutes and 4 seconds from the time the horse went down to when they had him unhitched and untangled (along with the teammate beside him) to when he got up! That is AMAZINGLY fast and efficient!

That’s what I was thinking all along… I have seen the hitches at the Royal many many times and have watched the horses being groomed and prepared, then hitched and moved towards the ring. I always thought they were so beautiful, but I know from my Clyde x mare that they are anything but placid!

Sad to find out they can be done as young as 6 or 7, esp. when you remember that a draft grows more slowly and matures later. We always focus on the TBs being done by age 2 or 3 if they race, but I guess a “driven” draft can be done at the same relative age.

So happy to see the 3 Belgians at my barn doing the occasional parade or wedding, or flipping hay, but nothing more strenuous at any time!

[QUOTE=JoanR;5456857]
I drive Clydesdales, and have been around (and in the arena with) some of the large hitches. First of all, you need to know that the calmness you see exhibited by the horses is due in a large part to training. They are NOT dullards, and can be quite “hot.” In fact, the hot ones are the ones who sometimes have a “fainting” moment. They get VERY amped up, and in hitch classes, they are fitted with what is called a check bit. Some of the hitches, in my opinion, check the horses WAY too high, resulting in a hitch that sounds like a pid of beached whales as it goes by. Some of the drafts have been known to get so excited and have their heads so high in the air, they basically swallow their tongue. That cuts of the air, horse “faints” then tongue goes back to its normal place and horse is fine. There is actually a device you can make to tie down a horse’s tongue during the class to keep them from swallowing it. I have seen it done and it works. But you need to get in there quickly in the line-up and get it off before the judge asks you to back. Quelah is absolutely right about most hitch horses having short careers. Both of mine are now 7, but I have been very conservative and I am certainly not in the “big leagues” or showing enough to break my guys down. I have actually shown in a hitch class without check bits, driving a pair, and it was very difficult. But I think some people count on the check bits way too much. And as to the origon of the term “Clydesdale moment” they usually don’t faint. They either fall down out of sheer clumsiness, or they can’t figure out what you want, so they lay down. Usually they are fine once they get back up.[/QUOTE]

This explains very well the actual mechanisms that play a part in the horse “fainting”. Thank you- I was having a hard time picturing how the horse was choking itself, but figured I was the only one, so didn’t ask.

It still doesn’t really address the concept of having a horse that is known to do this as the lead horse in such a setting. Driving accidents are terrifying to me, mostly because I don’t drive, but also because as I understand it, they can easily be fatal to horse/rider. Not a simple tumble and fall for a rider like in most mounted falls… Shouldn’t this kind of thing (the horse “fainting” in the previous class) be addressed by officials to ensure the safety of other drivers and their hitches during large, crowded classes?

I have not liked a lot of what I have seen in the hitch ring, and sometimes it is very disappointing that I can’t really compete my horses against the ones that are worked with checks and heavy shoes all year round. That is one of the reasons I have started showing in other driving “sports” like pleasure driving and combined driving (very low level stuff on combined driving!). I a not willing to drive with their checks too tight or with extra heavy shoes. Again, it is disappointing when my horses (naturally up-headed) lose to horses who are basically wired into place. But such is life!

As to the amazing nature of “rescue” in the draft ring, I can personally attest to the quickness of the draft community when you have trouble. Mine was at an ADS show and was totally my own fault, but my Clyde laid down in the line-up. So I looked down at him, flopped between the shafts of nmy expensive Troyer show cart, wondering how I could get him up without damaging my cart. Before I came to decision (like within 15 seconds) four of our group jumped into the ring and had him unhitched. within 30 seconds or o of the “event” the cart (with me in it) was pushed back, the horse encouraged with a slight kick to get up and he was walked from the ring. Hardest thing of the whole incident was getting out of the cart with the shafts on the ground and walking from the arena with myself beween the shafts instead of my horse! Te light horse people assumed my horse and I were done for the show and they were surprised to see us back in the arena for the next class. Quick reaction to unexpected events, including runaways, is not usually found in the light horse world.

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;5454560]
He definitely went down in a way that would be consistent with “fainting”. His momentary stiffness, the neck position, evident confusion, etc… Is this a common occurrence with teams such as this? I would think it would be inconvenient at least to have your 1 ton power sources dropping like flies. :eek:[/QUOTE]
Could it be something like an arrhythmia? Atrial fib, maybe? Two times in one day, pretty scary for a horse with this type of job!

Joan, that is a really interesting albeit probably embarassing story. Why in the world did your horse lay down? Do drafts do this? Is it a gentle giant way of having a temper tantrum? Playing “dead baby” at the grocery store when you don’t give them what you want? weird…

And if this is so common in drafts to give up and play possum, whether through fainting or just a conscious choice, is that why draft people are so good at responding - because it’s common?

I’ve always shied away from the owning the draft breeds for one reason - the size of their poop! Maybe now I have reason number two!

Call me crazy, but I have a hard time believing that draft horse people are so much “better” than light horse people. It really sounds like there’s a good bit of prejudice here. I sure each group has their shining stars and their dented halos.

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;5457717]
Call me crazy, but I have a hard time believing that draft horse people are so much “better” than light horse people. It really sounds like there’s a good bit of prejudice here. I sure each group has their shining stars and their dented halos.[/QUOTE]

It isn’t that they are “better,” it is that we have a tradition of showing that dates back 100+ years that encourages community, safety and cohesion. It takes about ten people to show a six up hitch. Many of the volunteers will help more than one hitch - it is a community like no other and I have friends all over the USA AND it has more men involved than women. A eight-up hitch can not be driven by most women (too small of hands) and by many men. Most women can’t drive a six-up going at full speed. Beyond that, it has traditionally been a “mans” sport. Safety is seen as being paramount (and that means safety of the crowds). Hint: lots of single men, for those looking for a “horsey” husband. It is a completely different world than showing any other type of horse. It is full of farmers, rural folk and people looking to get back to traditions long past. People use their whole families to show. It is not unusual for grandpa, son and grandson and daughter, along with grandma doing all the cooking at the show grounds -there to show with everyone entering classes and helping prepare. You see five year old working their butts off cleaning harness and being proud of it as they work next to their ten year old brother and mother. People are there to pass down traditions, visit with old friends and keep a piece of Americana alive. I think it is what draws people, even billionaires into the sport. Many people want to have community and capture a bit of history.

People come to you at these shows, if you are newbie. They introduce themselves, lend a hand. I show in light horse shows and I have not ever witnessed this level of community at a light horse shows -ever in 40 years.

I, like Joan -will not show in the “big” shows anymore because of what it takes to even place BUT I absolutely admire the people and community!

But -The extremes needed to win get worse and worse each year -and ergo stuff like this crops up.

If one person chooses to show a horse that has fainted, that doesn’t mean that the whole community accepts that as normal practice! A judge would excuse such a horse (as I witnessed). I would imagine that if a horse fainted, the owners probably did something (drugs for windyness, tied the tongue, changed the overcheck settings, made sure it drank, etc) and thought they fixed the problem. No one shows thinking: “my horse is going to faint but who cares!”

[QUOTE=Doctracy;5457391]
Could it be something like an arrhythmia? Atrial fib, maybe? Two times in one day, pretty scary for a horse with this type of job![/QUOTE]

Draft horses use sidechecks, while light horses mostly use overchecks, which force the nose out. The light horse overcheck is from the driven racing, to KEEP his nose and airway open during competition. A Standardbred who puts his nose down, loses the oxygen fuel needed for real speed by crimping his throat airway. He will lose races.

Saddlebreds, Arab, Hackney, some Morgan classes, also want some FIRE in the ring. Often with speed thrown in, so they NEED the oxygen to be able to display that. Helps that all are up-headed breeds, and checking them up with overchecks does change the action they show. Showing them you will see the running martingales to aid driver prevent from horse sticking nose straight out in front, throwing head upward to avoid the bit. Most of these animals will also have a MUCH cleaner throatlatch, to allow the more vertical headset wanted in the show ring, yet not cut off the windpipe in moving.

Draft horses in the past, NEEDED to be able to put heads down to pull a load. Loosely fit sidechecks will allow horse to bend and lower head for a pull, but help prevent horse getting in trouble in a long days work, when driver may leave them unattended. Sidechecks work with a different leverage, using almost a pulley leverage system to bend horse at the throatlatch, folding the windpipe.

Drafts in most cases, are WELL-FED, have heavy, thick necks, wth very thick throatlatchs. When checked high, face trying to be vertical between reins and sidecheck, I don’t believe they can possibly get enough oxygen to work as expected. Sounds like the local steam locomotive going by! So fainting from lack of air, along with other mentioned air blockages like a tongue going back, sounds reasonable. As with any device, if a little checking is good, more is better! So checking up show horses who really were not moving working loads to be flashier, has become common practice. Most observers just see power and size, not “how” the horses are unbalanced. The Amish farmers don’t check the working draft horses up high, they can’t pull a load or get their days work done!

Black Beauty was written to point out cruelties of the time that horses had to deal with, and high checking was one of the issues covered. Look at the carriage photos of the time, with “notables” beside the vehicles or driving down the avenues. The book “Carriages At Eight” REALLY covers a lot of the Victorian Age issues in London, that using horses daily involved. Horses down in the roads from high checking, couldn’t keep their feet under them, then being devalued from scarred knees, gets mentioned. No one wants a horse who goes down, obvious with his marked “broken knees”, so they went cheap, as they slid down the scale in being desirable animals.

The high checking is now part of the Draft scene, expected of those wanting to win. Checking tightly, then making horses work for longer times, pulling bigger loads, will transfer the stresses to body parts not made to take them. Backs are hollowed out, legs taking big impact from off-balance animals, is going to shorten their working lives for the ring. Never have understood the bad shoeing they wanted on drafts?? Scotch bottoms for ALL! Designed for Clydes, doesn’t work that well except on Clydes!! And then you just bondo any other problems away, cover with a coat of hoof blacking for the ring!!

And maybe it is local, but the younger horses are easier to manage, not ALWAYS trained that well. BUT young ones can be forced, muscled into doing as desired. Having young horses working hard and forced into unnatural body carriage during work, is going to hurt them as they develop. Maybe as they age, horses start refusing to work at all, like laying down or more severe reactions, because thehitching and going to work hurts them.

We have quite a few draft horse folks around, so you pickup stuff without working at it. Quite a few brag about their hitches, how they train, and it is not pretty! Others really do their homework, horses are solid, but unwilling to go to the extremes needed to win so they just get ribbons, not the big money. Scariest are the Tandems, usually a 2yr old as Leader, because they can move faster to stay ahead! Drivers brag on how few times they have been hitched, just bounce the Tandem off the ring walls. Tandems usually only EVER hitched at shows, not practiced at home, so they have plenty of fire with youngster running from big horse chasing him/her!!

And these are not the backyard folks, but big money hitches, doing this stuff locally!

As with any “specialty”, Drafts, light horses, Western in all it’s forms, English including all the Disciplines, there are things that can be improved. No horse activity is lily-white in how they do things, so no stone throwing should be done. Sure would not want the Peta folks getting the people believing horses should all “be free” and never used. Horses would be gone really fast.

Explain to me again what is the check bit and how a spectator can see how tight it may be.

I love Clydesdales and in the area, David Carson is the big C man. Beside the hitches, the shows, etc., he runs a nurse mare operation, has auctions (tack, horses, weanlings). Somehow I don’t have butterflies when I watch him, but yes, it is definitely a family operation at the farm and at the shows.

Actually, they do use overchecks but they often combined with sidechecks. So, you “see” a traditional chain but there is still an overcheck attached.

Some people do just use sidechecks but that is rarer in the big shows. That is considered old fashioned.

Most use a bent overcheck bit
http://www.mydrafthorse.com/cfwebstore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=97

The over check runs from the collar, up the neck (each side) and then turns into one piece of leather at the poll and then runs down from the poll -splits across the bridge of the nose and connects to the overcheck bit.
http://www.mydrafthorse.com/cfwebstore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=20

If you look carefully, you can see the overcheck and the kind of fake side check on this photo. In the description, you will see it referred to as an overcheck.

Having had ponies in the past, I saw too many who had the overcheck way too tight. Some told me they were to prevent the ponies from getting their heads down to buck in the harness. I wondered how they could do that?
But as with anything else there are those who over do it on most anything connected with horses.
I’m hoping there will be a happy medium with the overcheck and the horses (and Ponies) get some relief from being overly tight on them.
I was also relieved that there was no injuries to man or horse in the video.
Perhaps the judges need to be educated more on the correct use of the overcheck?
Or am I being idealistic on that?
JMHO

sadlmakr

Most of the judges at the draft shows (at least the ones I have showed at) are still showing drafts or retired from showing drafts, so they don’t seem to see anything wrong with what is going on. Many of the people who use some of the “harsher” methods and win a lot think those of us who do not choose to use those methods are just not trying to be competitive or that we are just “sore losers.”

Personally, I will be sticking with my own philosophy about what is acceptable for my horses, and when I do well in a class, it makes that so much sweeter.

goodhors, w/ respect, you have some misconceptions/mistaken impressions. A hitch horse should NOT have his head on the vertical, not so lovingly referred to as the horse “having his head in the bucket”. The desired head carriage is up and out. Most hitch horses are driven w/ the overcheck in effect, the side check chain, if used, is generally just hanging there.

They are not pulling any kind of weight in the hitch classes, I can move a hitch wagon by myself if I have to, and not a 1/2 or 3/4 model either. With another person, I can move it easily.

Out West here, and for that matter, what I’ve seen at Denver and Calgary, the tandem is the drivers’ class, not a train wreck at all. The most dangerous class at a draft show is said to be single ladies, or Americana if they have one.

I’ll admit to knowing zip/nada/zlich about harness racing, but I’ve spent a fair bit of time on at the track, and at the treadmill at UC Davis. Head height doesn’t factor in for wind, though position/flexion might, I don’t think they’ve studied rolkeur and airflow :wink:

WOW! Thanks for the great explanation! Man, I feel bad for those horses. And I sure wish they wouldn’t bob their tails.what do they use to swat flies? I would still love to have these fainting horses on a cardiac minutes to see what is happening, perhaps they get a lack of oxygen which stresses their heart? Or, maybe there are even a few out there that can’t take the strain due to some sort of genetic cardiac or pulmonary defect?

[QUOTE=goodhors;5458012]
Draft horses use sidechecks, while light horses mostly use overchecks, which force the nose out. The light horse overcheck is from the driven racing, to KEEP his nose and airway open during competition. A Standardbred who puts his nose down, loses the oxygen fuel needed for real speed by crimping his throat airway. He will lose races.

Saddlebreds, Arab, Hackney, some Morgan classes, also want some FIRE in the ring. Often with speed thrown in, so they NEED the oxygen to be able to display that. Helps that all are up-headed breeds, and checking them up with overchecks does change the action they show. Showing them you will see the running martingales to aid driver prevent from horse sticking nose straight out in front, throwing head upward to avoid the bit. Most of these animals will also have a MUCH cleaner throatlatch, to allow the more vertical headset wanted in the show ring, yet not cut off the windpipe in moving.

Draft horses in the past, NEEDED to be able to put heads down to pull a load. Loosely fit sidechecks will allow horse to bend and lower head for a pull, but help prevent horse getting in trouble in a long days work, when driver may leave them unattended. Sidechecks work with a different leverage, using almost a pulley leverage system to bend horse at the throatlatch, folding the windpipe.

Drafts in most cases, are WELL-FED, have heavy, thick necks, wth very thick throatlatchs. When checked high, face trying to be vertical between reins and sidecheck, I don’t believe they can possibly get enough oxygen to work as expected. Sounds like the local steam locomotive going by! So fainting from lack of air, along with other mentioned air blockages like a tongue going back, sounds reasonable. As with any device, if a little checking is good, more is better! So checking up show horses who really were not moving working loads to be flashier, has become common practice. Most observers just see power and size, not “how” the horses are unbalanced. The Amish farmers don’t check the working draft horses up high, they can’t pull a load or get their days work done!

Black Beauty was written to point out cruelties of the time that horses had to deal with, and high checking was one of the issues covered. Look at the carriage photos of the time, with “notables” beside the vehicles or driving down the avenues. The book “Carriages At Eight” REALLY covers a lot of the Victorian Age issues in London, that using horses daily involved. Horses down in the roads from high checking, couldn’t keep their feet under them, then being devalued from scarred knees, gets mentioned. No one wants a horse who goes down, obvious with his marked “broken knees”, so they went cheap, as they slid down the scale in being desirable animals.

The high checking is now part of the Draft scene, expected of those wanting to win. Checking tightly, then making horses work for longer times, pulling bigger loads, will transfer the stresses to body parts not made to take them. Backs are hollowed out, legs taking big impact from off-balance animals, is going to shorten their working lives for the ring. Never have understood the bad shoeing they wanted on drafts?? Scotch bottoms for ALL! Designed for Clydes, doesn’t work that well except on Clydes!! And then you just bondo any other problems away, cover with a coat of hoof blacking for the ring!!

And maybe it is local, but the younger horses are easier to manage, not ALWAYS trained that well. BUT young ones can be forced, muscled into doing as desired. Having young horses working hard and forced into unnatural body carriage during work, is going to hurt them as they develop. Maybe as they age, horses start refusing to work at all, like laying down or more severe reactions, because thehitching and going to work hurts them.

We have quite a few draft horse folks around, so you pickup stuff without working at it. Quite a few brag about their hitches, how they train, and it is not pretty! Others really do their homework, horses are solid, but unwilling to go to the extremes needed to win so they just get ribbons, not the big money. Scariest are the Tandems, usually a 2yr old as Leader, because they can move faster to stay ahead! Drivers brag on how few times they have been hitched, just bounce the Tandem off the ring walls. Tandems usually only EVER hitched at shows, not practiced at home, so they have plenty of fire with youngster running from big horse chasing him/her!!

And these are not the backyard folks, but big money hitches, doing this stuff locally!

As with any “specialty”, Drafts, light horses, Western in all it’s forms, English including all the Disciplines, there are things that can be improved. No horse activity is lily-white in how they do things, so no stone throwing should be done. Sure would not want the Peta folks getting the people believing horses should all “be free” and never used. Horses would be gone really fast.[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe I’m saying this, but logically a lead horse would be the easiest to unhitch. Imagine the muddle of a middle horse going down.