There are a few loud Sabino shires out there. It says “undesirable” not “impossible.”
http://www.tallyhoshires.com/rachel.htm
http://www.windynightshires.com/images/acepat_lg.JPG
Not really a pinto, but look at the gorgeous coloring on this one!
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2407592660089092476TOaYuX
I just don’t know how you people can even ride these big draftie and draftie crosses in dressage!
When I turn up the center line to finish my test, I feel like I can barely get my 13.3 pony to make the turn…and I admire everyone who can keep those big horses together! :lol:
THE Standard.
http://www.shire-horse.org.uk/breed_standard.htm
COLOUR Black, brown, bay or grey. No good stallion should be splashed with large white patches over the body. He must not be roan or chestnut.
HEIGHT 17 hands (173 cms) high at maturity. Average about 17.2 hands (178 cms).
HEAD Long and lean, neither too large or too small, with long neck in proportion to the body. Large jaw bone should be avoided.
EYES Large, well set and docile in expression. Wall eyes not acceptable.
NOSE Slightly Roman nostrils thin and wide; lips together.
EARS Long, lean, sharp and sensitive.
THROAT Clean cut and lean.
SHOULDER Deep and oblique, wide enough to support the collar.
NECK Long, slightly arched, well set on to give the horse a commanding appearance.
GIRTH The girth varies from 6 ft (183 cms) to 8 ft (244 cms) in stallions of from 16.2 (168 cms) to 18 hands (183 cms).
BACK Short, strong and muscular. Should not be dipped or roached.
LOINS Standing well up, denoting good constitution (must not be flat).
FORE-END Wide across the chest, with legs well under the body and well enveloped in muscle, or action is impeded.
HIND-QUARTERS Long and sweeping, wide and full of muscle, well let down towards the thighs.
RIBS Round, deep and well sprung, not flat.
FORELEGS Should be as straight as possible down to pastern.
HINDLEGS Hocks should be not too far back and in line with the hind-quarters with ample width broadside and narrow in front. “Puffy” and “sickle” hocks should be avoided. The leg sinews should be clean cut and hard like fine cords to touch and clear of short cannon bone.
BONE MEASUREMENT Of flat bone 11 inches (28 cms) is ample, although occasionally 12½ inches (32 cms) is recorded – flat bone is heavier and stronger than spongy bone. Hocks must be broad, deep and flat and set at the correct angle for leverage.
FEET Deep, solid and wide, with thick open walls. Coronets should be hard and sinewy with substance.
HAIR Not too much, fine straight and silky.
A good Shire Stallion should stand from 17.0 hands (173 cms) upwards, and weigh from 18 cwt (900 Kg) to 22 cwt (1100 Kg) when matured, without being overdone in condition. He should possess a masculine head and a good crest with sloping, not upright, shoulders running well into the back, which should be short and well coupled with the loins. The tail should be well set up and not what is known as “gooserumped”. Both head and tail should be carried erect. The ribs should be well sprung, not flat sided, with good middle which generally denotes good constitution. A Stallion should have good feet and joints; the feet should be wide and big around the top of the coronets with sufficient length in the pasterns. When in motion, he should go with force using both knees and hocks, which latter should be kept close together, he should go straight and true before and behind.
A good Stallion should have strong character.
MODIFICATION OR VARIATION OF STALLION STANDARD
OF POINTS FOR MARES
COLOUR Black, brown, bay, grey, roan.
HEIGHT 16 hands (163 cms) upwards.HEADLong and lean, neither too large nor too small, long neck in proportion to the body, of feminine appearance.
EYES Large, well set and docile in expression. Wall eyes are acceptable except for animals Grade A and B register.
NECK Long and slightly arched and not of masculine appearance.
GIRTH 5 ft (152 cms) to 7 ft (214 cms) (matured) according to size and age of animal.
BACK Strong and in some instances longer than a male.
LEGS Short, with short cannons.
BONE MEASUREMENT9 (23 cms) to 11 inches (28 cms) of flat bone, with clean cut sinews.
A Mare should be on the quality side, long and deep with free action, of a feminine and matronly appearance, standing from 16 hands (163 cms) and upwards on short legs; she should have plenty of room to carry her foal.
MODIFICATIONS OR VARIATION OF STALLION STANDARD
OF POINTS FOR GELDINGS
COLOUR As for Mares.
HEIGHT 16.2 (168 cms) hands and upwards.
GIRTH From 6 ft (183 cms) to 7 ft 6 ins (229 cms).
BONE MEASUREMENT 10 (23 cms) to 11 inches (26 cms) under knee, slightly more underhock and broadside on, of flat hard quality.
A Gelding should be upstanding, thick, well-balanced, very active and a gay mover; he should be full of courage and should look like and be able to do a full day’s work. Geldings weigh from 17 (850 Kgs) to 22 cwt (1100 Kgs).
Hocks must be broad, deep and flat and set at the correct angle for leverage.
Maybe I am wrong but “leverage” to me means pushing or ability to push. Pushing would make sense considering what they are bred to do. Carrying is totally different and it wouldn’t make sense in a draft horse.
Most draft breed have legs that are “camped out behind”. You can look up this conformation trait on the internet if you dont beleive me but it is not desireable for dressage because it makes it hard for a horse to step under and CARRY vs PUSH. That is why they are fine at lower levels, because all training level or first level horses are pushing with their hind legs rather than carrying.
I dont want to post pictures of other peoples horses on the net but if you type in clydesdale, shire ect and look at the top horses, they have this “camped out” conformation.
Photos can be deceiving, though. A horse that is “posed” for a breed specific purpose, and has been conditioned for a particular discipline, is not going to look the same after dressage training.
I have seen “before” and “after” pics of saddlebreds that don’t even look like the same horse. We have a saddleseat trainer at the barn and I’d swear that those horses could NEVER do dressage, but Saddlebred breeders assure me that re-conditioning changes them drastically.
I’ve seen amazing changes in Lewin’s horse, and she only went from hunters to dressage. A horse driven with a check strap and his head held high is going to look a lot different than a horse being ridden in a round frame.
[QUOTE=Wild Oaks Farm;3131970]
I just don’t know how you people can even ride these big draftie and draftie crosses in dressage!
When I turn up the center line to finish my test, I feel like I can barely get my 13.3 pony to make the turn…and I admire everyone who can keep those big horses together! :lol:[/QUOTE]
I ride two 17hh draft crosses that are 1500 lbs and they have no problems. We have yet to jump out of the ring or knock the fences down so it is possible.
Dream on! Contrary to your belief - you cannot move bones with dressage training!
Shire Horse of the Year 2007 http://images.newsquest.co.uk/image.php?id=613467&type=full
(not “dressage” hocks)
:lol::lol: Well then I am definitely the one with the problems!!! Since my pony HAS jumped out of the ring before! :D:D
LOL, my big guy (1500-1600 lbs) is very agile! He loves to do crazy stunts in turnout, sliding stops, etc. I always think one day he’s just gonna blast through the turnout/arena rail but so far so good
I joke that he shoulda been a reiner 
I guess the reason I found this particular draft so intriguing is that he apparantly does not fit the standard printed by a previous poster. He will only grow to 16.2, has Big splashes of white on belly and withers, and is built more like a warmblood than a typical draft. And that is exactly why I think he just may fit the bill for dressage. I will post a photo if the owner lets me and I can figure out how.
I am no expert in horse physiology, nor in Shires, but I do know after several months of intensive physical therapy that bones are held together not by screws and bolts, but by tendons and ligaments that stretch and shorten based on use. I would assume that with horses, as with humans, you can reduce the chances for injury by properly conditioning a horse, building the muscles in support of the joints that will be worked hardest and making sure the ligaments don’t shorten.
Are there any particular dressage exercises you favour that would change the relationship of the bones that make up the hock joint??
White on the belly is allowed in the registry…the color is classified as blagdon. However, the splashes on the withers have me stumped:) He sounds lovely and like he would make a great partner for you!
[QUOTE=feisomeday;3126515]
I trained my English Shire/TB cross up to pirouette and tempi work and showed up to 3rd level at top rated shows, highest score 65%. She was the love of my life. Not suitable for dressage, really, as she naturally wanted to pull her body across the ground with her front legs. But she tried hard and was willing and eager to please. We never really nailed extensions, but her lateral and canter work was good. Her trot was a spinal cracker for me but better riders could sit her bounce better.
Looking back, I wasn’t doing her any favors trying to make her into a dressage horse[/QUOTE]
I have limited experience here, but did ride a Percheron for a couple years in w/t lessons (she never did get strong enough to canter). The “spinal cracker” is something that people never believed because there seems to be a misconception about that “big” trot of a draft horse - that it’s smooth. It ISN’T, is it feis? People were often stunned when I told them that I could feel every bit of that 1850 pounds hammering the ground with every step…“but I heard they’re like riding a sofa!”…yes, it’s like riding a bouncing sofa down a rocky slope.
And at 5 years old after not more than 8 months of light work with me as her only rider she was diagnosed with ring bone…like feisomeday said - I don’t think riding these huge horses in a discipline that they aren’t designed for, is in their best interest.
Definitely Majikal!:rolleyes:
Isn’t it though:D
The OP stated that it was a light 16.2 hh horse. My horse is 16.3hh, same height as Lewin’s.
Maybe you should speak with these people breeding the 17hh+ warmbloods? There’s one at my barn who is 17.2hh. He towers over my draft cross.
If you wanted to change that horses hockset Equibrit then you just need to take the trailers off their shoes. It is one of the ways they make them have close hocks like that.
Draft horses do tend to toe out a bit and be close behind (although generally not that close) but from everyone favorite Dr. Clayton:
“In dressage horses,” she added, “being a little close in the hindlegs is often a good thing. When the horse is moving, the hock naturally turns inward and the stifle naturally turns outward. This allows the hindleg to clear the horse’s barrel. If the hocks are a little more in, this gives the horse more clearance between his stifles and his barrel in the lateral movements.”
I do think some of the horses tend to camp out a bit behind. Just like some of the horses have necks that I feel are too short. Those are things I would avoid in dressage horses. Fortunately there are plenty of drafts out there that have neither of those problems. They also do tend to push with their hind end rather than carry, but the carrying has been easy to teach because the thrust is there. Transitions are your friend.
Look for a draft with a natural canter and the desire to go forward. Neck not too short and overall good conformation. A good attitude will help you the rest of the way and make the journey much more pleasureable.
And just because I love this photo. A french Percheron showing off his carrying power:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/shpf/actualites/actus/2007/cheval%20cabr�.jpg
And regarding whether drafts/crosses can canter, here’s a video of my guy being a nutjob in turnout (PSA- I have the zoom on. I am not standing there while 1600 lbs of momentum gets inches away from me, duh! I was at least 3-4 feet back from the gate.).
And because I love my old man, here are his photos having fun.
I sometimes wonder, are teenagers supposed to act like this?
http://www.cieloazure.com/charlesfun.html
I think I may get out there I do some videoing of our Perchs and dressage.
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