Recently. at my barn, I’ve seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered. My question is this. Can a shire do upper level? He looks really fancy and is small for his breed. I hear he is for sale and am really intrigued. He moves better than a lot of Freisians at my barn. What would someone offer for such an "off-the-beaten-road kind of horse.? I’m clueless but after seeing the “SuperGuss” video I think going out of the box might be just the thing for me. Any draft dressage people out there?
I had a Belgian draft that I did dressage on, but to be honest she was not a “dressage” horse. Of course, at the time I was not as educated a rider as I now so who knows what she would have done with a better rider. Getting her to use her hind end and not fall on the forehand was a major ordeal. Besides from that though she was terrific. Each horse is different. I would be concerned with just how much reach this Shire has with his hind feet. I have not seen a full draft at any dressage shows in this area. I would suggest you take a trainer with you to evaluate this horse’s movement. You also need to ride to make sure you are comfortable with the amount of concussion involved in riding these big horses. Also evaluate the canter. The collection work will come easier than the extension but most drafties don’t have much natural suspension. Will owner allow you to take a video? As for price – I have seen drafts almost given away and priced up into the $15,000. Shires tend to bring a higher price tag than some other drafties. Tack and saddle fit will also be a considertion.
Thanks for the feedback. I’ll video him. He is only about 16.1 H and moves like a normal horse to my untrauned eye but he is cute as a bug’s ear.
My daughter took her Irish Draught through 4th level. Irish Draught’s often score well in dressage through PSG, although I have not known any at Grand Prix. Kim Severson has an Irish Draught cross (Tipperary Liadham?sp) who is scoring very well in eventing dressage. Gina Miles scores well with McKinleigh, an Irish Draught Sport horse, who events at advanced.
Lengthenings and canter pirouettes were difficult for our horse, but he did master them. Collection, keeping his head still, and keeping a good rhythm were very easy for him. Some dressage judges did not score him well. Others loved him.
We have draft cross sport horses - three of our clyde/hackneys event and now mine is schooling level 4 movements - I intend on showing him level 1 nationally to start and see how he goes.
He has great lateral movements and we have just started canter half passes and working on our lead changes.
Lengthenings still take a bit of work at the trot because he still tends to go up more than forward but it is coming.
You can see him at www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm - he is doing a leg yield in that picture.
I also have a belgian tb mare that will do training level/maybe level 1 this year as well.
She has great lengthening but still have to work on our collection and lightness.
They tend to be forehand heavy.
I have seen some awesome Clyde-Hackney and Perch-Thb crosses that do nicely up to 3rd, 4th level.
used to show with a lady that showed a full shire to 2nd level.
Once I asked her how he was to ride, since she looked like she was working awful hard to drive his hind quarters up under him and keep him off his forehand, she looked like she lived in half halt hell, LOL.
So I was very curious and listened with interest. I knew she’d had to have a custom saddle and bridle made, since no dressage tack fitted him.
She said, ‘Oh FINE, except for the royal pounding my ass gets every step of the trot and canter’.
So you might want to think about that.
According to her neither the back nor the hind quarters are designed to ‘carry’ that big front end, but to push it. She said she was pretty happy at training and even first level.
I just watched a friend’s lesson yesterday on her purebred percheron 
I’m convinced they’ll make FEI, if only because she’s damned well determined to do so :winkgrin: Her mare is lovely. (and if she’s reading this, maybe she’ll respond- I think she also lives in hh, but more to keep her mare from going on mad gallops around the ring than anything else!).
I wish there were more drafts in dressage…I really need to sell my saddle!
lol…I love my draftie, but I have no real aspirations for her. I just want to ride her as 'correctly" as I can manage. I saw the most lovely Belgian x Arab cross though, who was a PSG horse. I guess there is hope!
I dont want to rain on the parade but the chances of a full draft cutting it past 1st level with good scores is pretty slim. They tend to be weak in the loin (which is a HUGE issue for a sport horse) and heavier on the forhand. They are also not bred to canter and every draft horse I have come across either doesn’t know it can canter or has a “run” not a canter. To get them to actually canter with “sit” would probably prove difficult. Conformationally, nothing in a draft horse really looks promising for serious dressage work to me.
Even amoungst friesians (even though they aren’t draft horses…they have been highly used for carriage and light ag work and their conformation reflects this) one has to search very hard to find one with the canter. They are also notoriously weak in the loins and the stifles point outwards. Makes “sitting”/collection very hard.
Of course, there are always exceptions!
Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He’s actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don’t let it bother me - I’m more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well.
I’d love to see more draft crosses out there competing at all levels - right now there are two others at FEI that I see at the National shows, and I’d love to see more. The key is in having a good eye for them - of course, not all of them will be competitive past first or so. However, most of the ones that have the appropriate conformation for the sport are limited more by their riders than by their own lack of quality or talent (but I guess we could say that about most horses!)
shire cross here
Albeit, I’m not really qualified to talk true ‘dressage’, I did just take my girl (shire cross) in our first ever real dressage show, we won a 1st and a 3rd. I was just assuming my ‘bad ride’ was a bit better than other’s worse rides, but really didn’t take into consideration the score sheet. We got a 68 and a 64, which I’m told isn’t too bad. It was training level.
I event her, would rather jump and ride ‘outside’, but understand the value of dressage work, and now have a coming 4 y.o. PMU - 3/4 TB, 1/4 perch gelding that I want to start correctly. He is amazing, looks alot like a WB, has lovely movement, so I think he could do it for sure.
My mare is as honest and wonderful as they come, but we have to really work to get a clean canter, she would rather shuffle. She is weaker behind, although not a huge horse, 16.1. However, we have had some incredible lessons over the winter, and she is markedly improved! She is 9 this year.
I think it’s important to realize each horse is an individual, and also to find a trainer not predjudiced against drafts, that makes a HUGE difference. Good luck. gina
[QUOTE=frisbee;3126126]
Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He’s actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don’t let it bother me - I’m more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well.
I’d love to see more draft crosses out there competing at all levels - right now there are two others at FEI that I see at the National shows, and I’d love to see more. The key is in having a good eye for them - of course, not all of them will be competitive past first or so. However, most of the ones that have the appropriate conformation for the sport are limited more by their riders than by their own lack of quality or talent (but I guess we could say that about most horses!)[/QUOTE]
I am hoping to show my guy nationally in Ontario this year - my coach thinks he may be able to do psg if I give up eventing. So maybe it is possible. You should join our face book group - draft cross riders of ontario
Whenever you ask a draught type to do dressage sort of work, long term, you are risking the health of his hock joints. The exception is the (much lighter) Irish Draught.
Please note, an Irish Draught is NOT the same type of horse as a Shire, Clyde, Belgian or Perch. They are RIDING horses, not plow/cart horses. They have always been bred to be big and strong enough to work and plow, but also athletic enough to hunt and jump. Drafts, in the traditional sense, were only ever supposed to be work horses, and have been bred for their pulling power, not their pushing power (the key ingredient for a jumping horse or a dressage horse). Irish Draughts are a totally different animal from a draft horse breed. Irish Sport Horses (IDSH is a totally American thing…I’ve never known an Irishman that refers to their ISH as IDSH) are not the same thing as a draft cross. Irish Draughts and ISH are extremely athletic, often incredibly good movers, and are bred for sport. Draft horses and draft crosses, while often safe, lower level amateur mounts, are not nearly as athletic. There ARE exceptions, but unlike the Irish horses, a draft or draft cross that is successful in the higher levels of any sport is the exception. Irish horses competing at the higher levels are usually the rule.
Sorry…this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I’ve been extremely lucky enough to have spent a great deal of time with well bred, very athletic and talented Irish horses imported from Ireland. I’ve also had my fair share of experience with draft crosses (belgian, clyde, perch, etc). While I love every horse for who they are, there is nothing as athletic and gifted as a good Irish horse (except for maybe a good TB!). A draft cross can’t even touch them. They are good honest workers, usually, and like I said, there are exceptional ones, but most I’ve known are average to clunky movers, struggle to truly collect and carry themselves, and are often lacking in any real power (be it scope for jumping, or power to truly push from behind).
I trained my English Shire/TB cross up to pirouette and tempi work and showed up to 3rd level at top rated shows, highest score 65%. She was the love of my life. Not suitable for dressage, really, as she naturally wanted to pull her body across the ground with her front legs. But she tried hard and was willing and eager to please. We never really nailed extensions, but her lateral and canter work was good. Her trot was a spinal cracker for me but better riders could sit her bounce better.
Looking back, I wasn’t doing her any favors trying to make her into a dressage horse
Sigh
Not to rain on anyone’s parade who dislike Percherons for dressage but at least one Percheron has succeeded at Prix St. George and has won many Ch, all over the USA. See: http://www.forresthillfarm.com/page2.html for full details of Cotton Wood Flame and SOME of the other Percherons and Perch crossbreds that Forrest Hills are competing with currently. I personaly know of some others too that are competing at level 2/3.
Up until the early 1900s, there were two types of distinct Percherons. A lighter, riding and light cart horse and a heavier horse (these horses became much heavier in the earlier part of the twentieth century). The lighter Percherons have always been used for cavalry riding and were bred for such. Tens of thousands were imported into the US for the cavalry during the late 1800s for riding. The show animals have always contained a lot of the old lighter lines, which are still much lighter Percherons than their plow horse cousins. As the Canadians also contain those lighter lines (which come from more ancient Percheron lines, according to the 1917 Sanders book -see below). If you go back and read the 1880s book of MC Weld, he lamments about the perceived future extinction of the lighter variety of Percheron as the demand for heavy horses was so great. But those bloodlines didn’t go extinct, they were infused into a power carriage horse have never really been used for the plow.
It is these lighter (we now call them “modern”) Percherons that tend to do much better in dressage.
Percherons were infused with “barb” blood, as written from books of the 1800s, during many periods of their development (although it has been a closed registry for more than 100 years now). If you go read Sylvia Loch’s books, you will know what the word barb historically meant and the importance that word has in dressage history.
It is true that it is more difficult to get a good extended trot, just as it is with the Freisians but (just like with the Fresians) it is not impossible. It requires a lot of conditioning to clean up the gaits. We ride Percherons because we love the breed, the power, the presence, the stability and the brain.
We do know that a warmblood is going to be easier to move through the levels. In fact, we are horse shopping right now for a warmblood for my 15 year old son to ride that will allow him to try to enter the young riders program. Our search, so far has not met with success as he needs a good quality horse, that is the correct type (read: not an off-breed) that is schooling at second level and that horse appears to be out of our price range. Sigh. it is an expensive sport, isn’t it! I am not sure that we will be able to afford a horse that would allow him to enter and move through the young riders program before he is too old!
Funny thing is that we have been “test driving” a number of warmbloods and the biggest complaint is that in the big movers, all that suspension makes their trots really hard to sit! Our Percherons are much nicer to ride, in terms of comfort at the trot.
Our own Percheron horses are not heavily built plow horses, they come from those old lines, which the show horse lines are built on, they are show animals and they are historically correct for the breed! They are leggy, they have less bone, and don’t have a huge barrel for a belly that a lot of people associate with drafts. We have had not one issue with joints. We chose the Percherons that we ride with care, we are looking for certain bloodlines and a certain type.
We have had no joint issues in our horses being ridden and in training. I have a lot of friends who use Percherons for dressage, and joint issues in these mature animals? I don’t remember hearing of any that are caused by upper level dressage work. I don’t know how many of you used to below to the Draft Sport horse forum before it shut down (300+ people), but joint issues just didn’t come up as a topic that I ever remember in mature animals.
After WWII (when there were large food shortages), the French Gov. changed their breed standard to include Percherons as meat and work animals. You can imagine how that impacted the French horses. When you see photos of French horses, think about what their breed standard was looking for. Those are not the refined Percherons from Percheron that once were! Now, they are importing American show stallions to try to refine the breed in France. There are now two standards in France that are shown. A lighter, coach horse (which they are trying to recreate) and a work horse, which still includes the standards as a meat animal.
If anyone has any interest in old books and Percheron history, I have a number of books that I can recommend.
Weld, M. C. And Du Hays, Charles
Title is The Percheron Horse in America/ in France
written in 1886
and
The 1917 Sanders book (The history of the percheron horse) is an amazing resource also. It is about 300 pages and full of photos.
http://www.cieloazure.com/earlyrecords.html
http://www.cieloazure.com/1880.html
Although the more modern types can do it, my little drafty haflinger was not cut out for dressage. Try as I might, her high stepping trot was so rough it killed my back, and it was so terribly hard for her to canter. It wasn’t fair to her or me to try to make her something she was not, so we turned to trail riding. I really think her hocks would have suffered had I pushed the issue. So, I’m looking for a new horse to further my dressage education.
There’s always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it’s really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren’t bred to do.
There’s always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it’s really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren’t bred to do.
Agreed. While every horse can benefit from good, solid basic dressage and can and should be able to perform 2nd level movements, at some point, a horse is just not cut out for the amount of power and strength needed to continue on. There are always exceptions, and some horses can “perform” the movements, but maybe without the real class and power of a real GP horse (that Fjord comes to mind. He can do the movements, but he is lacking in real power and suspension).
I think that with most breeds there are bound to be a few that are truly specialists and will work quite well for dressage. There is a Shire/TBX in my neck of the woods that competes at PSG and does quite well. He doesn’t look super easy to ride, but not horrible either. I would have a sit on the horse to see if he’s comfortable, that may indeed be an issue. Also, not all, but a few of the draft crosses I’ve seen have actually been a bit hot and not so bright. :uhoh: When you combine that with a BIG, powerful youngster it’s not so fun. My only other suggestion is to be very careful if the horse is not fully mature. I’ve seen some FABULOUS 3 year olds that grew up to be clunkers at 6/7. I’ve yet to see one that I’d want to ride and bring along but hey I’m not ruling it out either…:winkgrin:
Quoted from frisbee:
"Every once in a while a thread about draft crosses lures me out of my lurker status! I have a thbd/Percheron cross that I show PSG and Intermediare at the National shows. He’s actually a PMU horse, so I think only one quarter perch. He has great pirouettes and changes and a piaffe and passage to rival any warmblood. Last year was his first year at FEI and his scores were usually mid-sixties. I accept that if a monster-moving warmblood also puts in an accurate test, they will beat us, but I don’t let it bother me - I’m more interested in developing my very special horse to be the best he can possibly be. My students also ride a lot of draft crosses - last year at the recognized shows we had a very competitive clyde cross at third, a hackney cross at second, and a couple of young ones at first and training that all did very well. "
Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD
Depending on the horse, Percheron/TB crosses as well as Clydesdale/TB crosses make fabulous open jumpers and I’ve schooled (for clients) Percheron/TB crosses that did exceptionally well in dressage.
