<<I’ve seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered.>>
A fully papered Shire??? I have always thought the only allowed colors are black, bay, brown,gray, with roan permissible but not preferred.
Just wondering…
[QUOTE=Equibrit;3126214]
Whenever you ask a draught type to do dressage sort of work, long term, you are risking the health of his hock joints. The exception is the (much lighter) Irish Draught.[/QUOTE]
Dressage work is tough on the hocks of any horse. Most upper level horses receive regular hock injections.
[QUOTE=Fast Alice;3126714]
There’s always someone in the barn who wants to show everyone and make it to grand prix with their twh/hackney/paso fino cross. But, you have to wonder if it’s really fair to the horse to perform at a task that they really weren’t bred to do.[/QUOTE]
Is GP “fair” to any horse? I’m sure they would all rather be out grazing in the field! Oh well, good luck finding a more compatible partner!
Dressage work is tough on the hocks of any horse. Most upper level horses receive regular hock injections.
It is ESPECIALLY hard on a horse that is not conformed for collected work.
ps…getting an extention out of a friesian is not comparable to a draft horse at all. It isn’t difficult…this is their forte…they have huge strides. It’s the collected work that can be problematic. They are still much lighter in build and much more suited to riding than a cold blooded draft. And there are still some issues.
This may sound breedist or whatever, I call it living in reality. Breeds that were bred for this sort of work are most often the ones found at the top. This isnt some conspiracy as most of us on this board like to beleive. Form = Function…I am true beleiver in it because the proof is in the pudding. There are always exceptions…we are talking generalities.
Of course…it all depends on how competative you want to be because any horse can do well with the correct training up to first level.
I think there is a misconception that draft horses cannot be ridden and shouldn’t go faster than a walk. I’m not sure where this fear of drafts started from, but it’s a shame since they are a lot of fun.
Anyway, only a few breeds (Iberian breeds in particular) are naturally conformed for collected work. Basically ANY horse who is not of Baroque build is going to have a tougher time with the upper echelons of dressage. Yet most of the modern horses who succeed do so in spite of their build. At what point do we step in and say that it’s not worth the physical toll that their bodies are taking?
I disagree with that. Most modern euro wb breeds are conformed so that they can withstand the rigours of upper level work, which in the cases of show jumping and dressage, requires a serious amount of sustained collection or "sit’. The show jumper needs to rock back and put his weight on his hind legs in much the same way a dressage horse needs to do so to perform a canter pirrouette. If any breed could do this we would see tonnes of mongrels winning the world cup showjumping classes. That is why so many of todays top dressage are “jumper bred” warmbloods…similiar conformation is required. When I look at my Hanoverians hind end build vs the friesians there is a significant difference. The femur is alot longer in wb’s than it is in draft horses and friesians. Short femurs (and again, drafts are notorious for this) mean legs that are “out behind” and this puts alot of strain on the hock joint and it also makes it hard for the horse to step under himself (let alone carry!). If you look at top jumpers or dressage horses, the triangle in the hind end from hip joint to point of buttock to stifle is equal.
People can argue all they want but it is a fact that most of the euro wb breeds have been bred for sport for many decades VERY selectively ( I am mostly familiar with the Hanoverian breed). It is a breeding program focused on creating an animal that has that “sit” . If wb’s didnt have the conformation to rock back and put serious weight on their hindquaters, they would not be the best jumpers in the world. And while they may not piaffe or passage in general the same as a baroque horse…(tho I have seen some who are far superior) they are still conformed for it and far better suited to withstanding the rigours of it than other breeds.
…
Hi,
What is your horse’s show name ?
I wonder if I have seen him …
Yours in sport,
Lynn
…
Hi,
I have never seen a Percheron/TB cross or a Clydesdale/TB
in the Open Jumpers, which I consider 1.4m or higher.
Can you tell me which horses these are/were ?
I have seen a few in the 1.2m that were competitive at B
and A rated jumper shows but no higher. By competitive I
mean in the top 10 …
Thanks.
Yours in sport,
Lynn
In the very simplest sense of the word, yes, they are warmbloods. But they do not come with the years and years of pedigree and purposeful breeding that “real” warmbloods come with. It has only been in the last little bit of time that people have been going out of their way to breed TBs to drafts and calling them sport horses. I still hold to the notion, though, that the ones that do well in the UPPER levels are exceptions to the rule. Coming from my sport, eventing, I can only think of one horse who has successfully competed regularly, with success, above prelim/one star (Bungee, who was ridden by Stephanie Butts in YRs, and who did a couple of 3 stars).
I have no doubt that there are draft crosses out their that have moved up the levels, in various sports, and done well for their owners and riders. Just as I know other non-traditional horses have done, as well.
I don’t think anyone is saying that draft crosses are MORE suitable or even AS for the upper levels of dressage or jumping than warmbloods that were bred for those disciplines (at least I am not). In general, a good (and ‘good’ is the key word here!) warmblood will be more competitive and will find the work physically easier. I think there is no doubt that a full draft (or sometimes even half draft) will have a very,very hard time moving up the levels past about first.
However, the most important thing here is that each horse must be evaluated on their individual merits. Having spent a number of years riding all sorts of lovely warmbloods for a high-end sales barn, I saw first hand that quality and breeding are no guarantees of success. I am the first to acknowledge that a draft cross that successfully shows FEI is the exception rather than the norm - however, there are some out there! I know my horse enjoys his work, and has NEVER taken a lame step except last winter when he stepped on a piece of ice. In fact, I had x-rays taken of his hocks and front feet as a baseline, and my vet told me he has unusually clean x-rays for a horse in his level of work.
Again, the key here is to maintain an open mind and recognize that duds and superstars exist within every gene pool!
First off, how tall and how old is this horse?
I don’t think it’s fair to generalize. Try to get a video of the individual horse and post it for opinions.
My 3/4 Belgian mare has a wonderful canter and can easily step into it from a walk at 3 years old. The other day she not only stepped into it but had the most amazing (comfortable!!:yes:) slow and collected canter I’ve ever ridden. I didn’t ask her to maintain it for long since she’s so young and still not really in peak condition. But I had goosebumps. I’m new to dressage and we will probably start at Training level this summer. I have no idea how high up we’ll move.
WhatzUp,
The Clydesdale/TB crosses and the Percheron/TB crosses that came to mind were back in the sixties in Michigan and they were being used in open jumping. They negotiated some five and six foot and higher courses easily without soundness issues. I did not follow their careers closley and I don’t remember their names, but several of them were well excepted as top money-making showjumpers and people were breeding more and more of them. There were a number that were being bred back to thoroughbreds. Very nice horses.
I have seen them used in top showjumping barns as high quality school horses. I do mean high quality. Practicing over six feet consistently and reliably.
I saw similar breeding in Austin TX when some people moved out from Maryland and brought their Percheron/TB horses with them. I love the Perceron/TB crosses. We called them Thorcherons. I thought that was a fairly common name for them. Those particular horses had been bred for jumping, but the owner decided to begin taking dressage seriously and there was no big problem with the switch. They were athletic.
I agree that showjumpers and high level dressage horses need to have pretty much the same conformation.
A lot of the modern WB rage has taken the spotlight recently, but a very large number of those WBs have genetic problems bred into certain lines. They do not stay sound. Those are specific lines.
Good bone structure comes in a number of breeds and grade horses.
Many horses that are bred for specific disciplines are not all that great.
[QUOTE=Donella;3126911]
. . .And while they may not piaffe or passage in general the same as a baroque horse…(tho I have seen some who are far superior) they are still conformed for it and far better suited to withstanding the rigours of it than other breeds.[/QUOTE]
I’d like to know which warmbloods you’ve seen that can piaffe or passage better than a classically trained Lipizzaner or Spanish type? I’m talking SIT, not that competitive “hollow backed” passage/piaffe that you see in the Anky-type horses.
Not trying to start a war, but really tired of the “warmblood” fad and the push for toe-flicking and impure gaits.
Eileen
I would research the gypsy cob. What is their background? I do believe they are considered a breed, and are flahy, heavy maned pintos . What were they bred for other than being the queen’s drum horse?
European warmbloods that do well in upper levels are exceptions to the rule, too. Ever noticed the price differential a horse gets when you put “FEI prospect” on the ad and mean it?
If you’re looking for a $10k horse (and face it, how many of us are looking for something above that? very few!) your chances of getting to FEI aren’t much better on a Hano than a Perch x. I call that “living in reality” as well. Most of us are trying to do the best we can on a limited budget, and we can get more “bang for our buck” with a draft x.
Now, if you have $50k to spend on a horse, don’t spend it on a draft cross unless it’s already doing FEI 
She said the horse LOOKS like a gypsy, but is in fact a Shire.
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3126731]
Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD [/QUOTE]
Ahem, no they are not. You might want to do a little reading up on the subject. There is an article on our web site as well as a good article on Sonesta’s web site that explains what a Warmblood is.
[QUOTE=Donella;3126911]
I disagree with that. Most modern euro wb breeds are conformed so that they can withstand the rigours of upper level work, which in the cases of show jumping and dressage, requires a serious amount of sustained collection or "sit’. The show jumper needs to rock back and put his weight on his hind legs in much the same way a dressage horse needs to do so to perform a canter pirrouette. If any breed could do this we would see tonnes of mongrels winning the world cup showjumping classes. That is why so many of todays top dressage are “jumper bred” warmbloods…similiar conformation is required. When I look at my Hanoverians hind end build vs the friesians there is a significant difference. The femur is alot longer in wb’s than it is in draft horses and friesians. Short femurs (and again, drafts are notorious for this) mean legs that are “out behind” and this puts alot of strain on the hock joint and it also makes it hard for the horse to step under himself (let alone carry!). If you look at top jumpers or dressage horses, the triangle in the hind end from hip joint to point of buttock to stifle is equal.
People can argue all they want but it is a fact that most of the euro wb breeds have been bred for sport for many decades VERY selectively ( I am mostly familiar with the Hanoverian breed). It is a breeding program focused on creating an animal that has that “sit” . If wb’s didnt have the conformation to rock back and put serious weight on their hindquaters, they would not be the best jumpers in the world. And while they may not piaffe or passage in general the same as a baroque horse…(tho I have seen some who are far superior) they are still conformed for it and far better suited to withstanding the rigours of it than other breeds.[/QUOTE]
Modern euro WBs are a very recent type of horse. They really shine in the jumper ring, but I firmly believe that upper level dressage does not come as easily to them. They just do not have the classic Baroque build. Instead what you see are horses that look great doing the job, but they have numerous conformation issues (particularly in the hind end) that compromise long-term soundness. The whole trend of breeding for “uphill” horses is an example. Horses should be level, plain and simple. Whenever you deviate from this, there will be consequences down the road. WBs are able to push through it with the help of corrective shoeing, injections, and not to mention their heart. Then you come to the P&P where they break down and simply cannot perform it remotely correctly. If we are going to talk about structural suitability for dressage, then this is a definite issue.
You make a very good point! :yes: Kind of goes along with what I said about a draft cross usually being a good, safe, sane, amateur horse. And most amateurs are probably going to be able to sit the trot on a decent draft cross better than even an average WB, which is a big plus for them.
I may have missed it, but is to OP looking at the Shire in question as just a good mount to ride and do things with, or is the OP considering it as a GP prospect?
Last time I read this argument, I researched it- and it turns out there’s not a whole heck of a lot of agreement on what the word “warmblood” means. I know one person has made the claim that only horses descended from one particular strain of wild horse can be called warmbloods, but when I researched more it turned out that the percherons and most light horses in Europe had the same origins as the european warmbloods. And the european warmbloods were bred from light and heavy horses in Europe.
I think, using the definitions I’ve seen, the modern Percheron is more of a Warmblood than a Cold blood.
But it’s a word, and one whose origins are not well known enough to say for sure that it means “this” rather than “that.” Saying a perch x is a warmblood isn’t saying that it is the same as a Hanovarian any more than saying a thoroughbred is a hot blood means it is the same as an Arabian.
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