draft horse/dressage

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3127265]
European warmbloods that do well in upper levels are exceptions to the rule, too. Ever noticed the price differential a horse gets when you put “FEI prospect” on the ad and mean it?

If you’re looking for a $10k horse (and face it, how many of us are looking for something above that? very few!) your chances of getting to FEI aren’t much better on a Hano than a Perch x. I call that “living in reality” as well. Most of us are trying to do the best we can on a limited budget, and we can get more “bang for our buck” with a draft x.

Now, if you have $50k to spend on a horse, don’t spend it on a draft cross unless it’s already doing FEI :)[/QUOTE]

This is nonsense. The Warmbloods dominate at the upper levels. There are “lots” of them up there.

If you’ve got $10,000 to spend, there are many, many Warmblood prospects out there with a pretty good shot at getting to FEI. It doesn’t take $50,000 :eek: So many people buy an inappropiate horse because they think they can’t afford anything “better”.

I’m not trying to start a war either but the proof is in the pudding. Donella’s post really say’s it well. Dressage is hard enough as it is. A horse with the correct conformation (shape) finds the work much less stressful and difficult. You are going to get much more “bang for your buck” by selecting a horse bred (and shaped) for the job.

The fact that most upper level horses are warmbloods does NOT mean that most warmbloods hit upper levels. If you are looking for a well-started horse in my area, an FEI prospect that is registered with a European WB registry is going to cost you a heck of a lot more than $10k.

$10K will buy you a baby, an unproven broodmare, or an older horse.

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3127339]
The fact that most upper level horses are warmbloods does NOT mean that most warmbloods hit upper levels. [/QUOTE]

Well, few riders make it to the upper levels, but you’ll still have a better chance on a Warmblood.

Good thing people are able to shop around, then!

I never meant to imply that just because it is a wb that it will be an FEI horse. Of course not. But we have to talk in terms of generalities here. IN GENERAL, euro wb’s have been bred for a long enough time for upper level dressage and jumping to create a fairly uniform type of horse that is conformed in a way to be highly suited to this job.

Other breeds of horses (outside of the baroque breeds) were not selected for and bred for this purpose and this purpose alone. It makes perfect sense to me…if your selection criteria is 1) the conformation needed to “sit” 2) large expressive gaits 3) ability to do both and this selection goes on for decades, you are going to end up with an animal much more suited to these three things than any other breed that was bred with an entirely different purpose in mind. If a breed registry is selective enough, major change can come about in three or so decades.

I also dont think it is the conformation of the wb that causes soundness issues but rather the ginormous size of these animals and the weight that is placed on the hind leg apparatus during colllection. This is what I have heard from numerous vets as well. A horse can be ideally conformed but when you have 1500lbs (vs 900 or so for a lippizan ect) bearing down on the joints, there are only going to be a limited number of piaffes in that horse.

You know…people here get all excited about wb’s. I don’t really know why. Every other sport has one breed or two breeds that excell at the job and usually dominate the upper levels. In every case, these breeds have been SELECTED and BRED for this purpose. Arabians dominate endurance because that is what they have been selected for. Quarterhorses dominate cutting…cuz that is what they have been selected and conformed to do. Thoroughbreds run faster than other breeds…why? Because they have been bred with the conformation in mind to do so. Why would it be any different for showjumping or dressage? And it isn’t, some people just have a hard time accepting it for some odd reason.

So all I am saying here is that the draft horse was bred and selected for a completely different purpose. To throw massive weight onto the forhand, to lean into and PULL weight that is behind it. The conformation affirms this. Massive forehands, shorter front legs to be closer to the ground and “dig in” creating a downhill build. Hind legs out behind because “stepping under or carrying” is not required to pull heavy weight. And this is why they excell at heavy agricultural work over any other type of horse.

But if you then change the purpose entirely…ie you want them to elevate the forhand…ie carry vs push…and you want them uphill…gosh, that is going to be tough. You are starting with the wrong conformation for the job of dressage. BUT…again, there are always exceptions and of course, up to first level …no problems. After that, if the work is pushed, the horse will likely break down or will not be able to perform up to par because of the result of trying to work against that conformation as well as putting that serious weight on hocks and stifles that were not built to carry at all.

Ultimately the ability of a horse to advance through the levels is rooted in its trainability and propensity to learn increasingly complex and quick commands. Conformation and genetic programming all play a role, but no one knows which horse will make it to Prix St. Georges or Grand Prix until it gets there.

I think the reason people want to work with breeds other than WBs is that some people like breeds other than WBs. For many of us, dressage is about the journey rather than the destination, and owning a horse is about more than that horse’s skill at a particular discipline.

Also, buying a european WB is cost prohibitive, no matter what others may say. Adding in travel costs and shipping to get one from Kansas doesn’t help the pocketbook.

It is true that it takes an exceptional draft or draftx to make upper levels, but that horse might still cost quite a bit less than a european WB capable of upper levels. And, some of us just like them. So why begrudge us that?

All those decades of careful breeding, and the rarety of said careful breeding, comes at a cost.

I totally agree, and I can see wanting to do dressage with another breed. I breed hanos and friesians. What do I ride right now? I ride my moms friesian. I adore her and while she is much more suited to it than most…she definately has some conformational shortcomings and may not ever make it past second even though she has three great “8” gaits, the collection will be hard. When my mom learns to ride her, I know that it wont matter to her if the horse never gets past second level because she loves THAT horse and THAT breed. For me, I am fairly competative so I pretty much know that I will be riding one of the wb’s when that horse comes along that shows that kind of talent.

It all depends how competative a person wants to be. If being competative isnt a big deal and all you want to do is try your hand at lower levels, then there really is no reason to go and buy a breed you aren’t crazy about just because it shows promise for upper levels.

Anyways, I am well aware as to why some people don’t want to buy them. But people here were argueing that wb’s are not really more suited or bred for it which is completely untrue. The OP asked if drafts are suited to it and in general they are not for the above mentioned reasons…but when someone asks this I always assume they mean COMPETATIVE dressage. Every horse can do lower level dressage and usually with very decent scores if the training is right!

Hi,

I am not saying, like I wrote before, that Tb/draft crosses
can not jump, but I have never seen them competitive at higher
than 1.2m - at Spruce Meadows, Thunderbird, Twin Oaks or HITS.
This is in the past 8-10 years and to date.

You wrote -

" I have seen them used in top showjumping barns as high quality
school horses. I do mean high quality. Practicing over six feet
consistently and reliably. "

Which high quality show jumping barns ? Who is riding them ?
… and 6 feet ?

The expectations on a competitive upper level show jumping or
dressage (or upper level any discipline) horse can not be directly
compared to what happened in the 1960’s, it is apples to oranges.

Again, the proof is in the pudding … or the show ring as the
case may be …

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Hi,

I still believe it takes an exceptional horse to make it to the
upper levels of any discipline and remain there, sound, until
retirement … registry or breed aside.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

here we go again - I can’t tell you how many times the wb gets tossed into an argument about riding a draft in dressage.

Did the op ask about warmbloods, no - she asked about a draft - it kind of drives me crazy when ever someone asks about a draft doing sports that the some warmblood people always get all defensive and think that their horses are the only ones that can do it or that somehow the draft crosses are going to interfere.

She didn’t ask for grand prix, she didn’t ask for a lesson on warmbloods - she asked about a draft.

We breed, train and show draft crosses as sport horses because we like them, we like their attitude, size, and what we can do with them. We event, show dressage and also do jumper. They are great horses and a pleasure to work with compared to some of the “WARMBLOODS” we have had or seen. But no - I am not lumping them all in one category either as there are some very lovely warmbloods too.

Now they have got me doing it too - yes you can do dressage with a draft or draft cross - I do and my guy is schooling level 4 - he also events, does jumper shows and fox hunts. But it looks like he is going to concentrate on dressage because that is where his strengths seem to lay and he absolutely loves it.

And don’t tell they can’t fetch a decent price - you would be shocked at what I have turned down for my gelding.

And he is definitely strong enough to sit on his hocks and have a very light canter - it just takes time to show them how. And he has a canter to die for now.

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.

[QUOTE=Equibrit;3127572]
If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.[/QUOTE]

Don’t be a parade rain cloud Equibrit! :wink:

FEI is possible for everyoneeeeee!

[QUOTE=Equibrit;3127572]
If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.[/QUOTE]
This myth is getting way out of control. Draft horses are HORSES. They can be ridden. They can go faster than a walk. They are not a separate species.

Do you honestly believe that anyone who dares to put a saddle on their drafts is risking their horse’s health? That is ridiculous.

This BB only gives us a sliver of what horses are really about. It is uber-English in orientation, most people are riders, and I think they have a foot in the competitive scene. You are entitled to your preferences, but please stop perpetuating bullcrap about certain breeds of horses not being able to be ridden. I don’t know where you are getting this stuff, but it’s not how thing works in the real world. In the real world, different types of horses do just FINE in a variety of situations!

If we want to talk about horses breaking down, the dressage community needs to clean its own house first before it can even begin to consider what other horses should be allowed to be ridden.

Do you honestly believe that anyone who dares to put a saddle on their drafts is risking their horse’s health? That is ridiculous.

Who is saying that? I didn’t see that at all. Some have said that conformationally it is difficult for the draft types to do upper level work. This is a general statement. There are exceptions to everything. But from a conformation standpoint, they usually aren’t built for it and it is very difficult. It’s like asking a Sumo wrestler to dance Swan Lake. I’m sure it would be possible, but extremely difficult.

There is a world of difference between putting a saddle on a horse and reaching FEI. A WORLD of difference. Nobody here has said that you cant do lower levels safely with them. But it is likely they will break down when you ask them to do something they are so far from being designed to do.

I used to belong to the crowd that beleived that all horses were capable of FEI if you just try hard enough. Then I looked around, learned more and got a dose of reality. For a horse to reach FEI levels in dressage with good scores (which means he is capable of it) he has to have the conformation (which is not seen in draft horses), the mind and the training to get there. All three are equally important but ALL must be there.

Some people just have to learn the hard way and it’s unfortunate for the horse. If FEI is your goal I would start with a horse that has the conformation that will give him at least the basis to do what you will ask him to do.

[QUOTE=Donella;3127620]
There is a world of difference between putting a saddle on a horse and reaching FEI. A WORLD of difference. Nobody here has said that you cant do lower levels safely with them. But it is likely they will break down when you ask them to do something they are so far from being designed to do.

I used to belong to the crowd that beleived that all horses were capable of FEI if you just try hard enough. Then I looked around, learned more and got a dose of reality. For a horse to reach FEI levels in dressage with good scores (which means he is capable of it) he has to have the conformation (which is not seen in draft horses), the mind and the training to get there. All three are equally important but ALL must be there.

Some people just have to learn the hard way and it’s unfortunate for the horse. If FEI is your goal I would start with a horse that has the conformation that will give him at least the basis to do what you will ask him to do.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Well said.

[QUOTE=oldschool;3124608]
Recently. at my barn, I’ve seen a girl riding a Shire that is a pinto, everyone says he is a gypsy cob but I asked and he is fully papered. [/QUOTE] Shires don’t come pinto. The breed standard is very specific in saying “no large splashes of white”

My question is this. Can a shire do upper level?
I doubt it but this might be a first.

He looks really fancy and is small for his breed. I hear he is for sale and am really intrigued. He moves better than a lot of Freisians at my barn.
Are you sure its not a DWB or a nice coloured cob?

[QUOTE=FancyFree;3127614]It’s like asking a Sumo wrestler to dance Swan Lake. I’m sure it would be possible, but extremely difficult.[/QUOTE] :lol: I’ll remember that most descriptive and amusing comment and am likely to quote you in future if you don’t mind.

[QUOTE=FancyFree;3127614]
Who is saying that? I didn’t see that at all. . . .[/QUOTE]Read Equibrit’s statement again:

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.

In other words:

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down [by riding it is implied] than reach FEI levels in dressage.

Roan

[QUOTE=Roan;3127635]
Read Equibrit’s statement again:

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels in dressage.

In other words:

If you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down [by riding it is implied] than reach FEI levels in dressage.

Roan[/QUOTE]

I took it that you are much more likely to break down the horse in the process of trying to reach FEI. I think Equibrit was saying that the work that it would take to reach that level would break the horse down before you even got there. Not that everyday riding would.

I could be wrong. What say you Equibrit?

[QUOTE=FancyFree;3127640]
I took it that you are much more likely to break down the horse in the process of trying to reach FEI. I think Equibrit was saying that the work that it would take to reach that level would break the horse down before you even got there. Not that everyday riding would.

I could be wrong. What say you Equibrit?[/QUOTE]

That’s how I took it at first as well, until canticle read it as it was actually written. I had to go back and reread her statement.

Eileen