draft horse/dressage

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3126731]
Percheron/TB crosses ARE warmbloods. TB (hotblood) + Percheron (coldblood) = A WARMBLOOD
[/QUOTE] Wrong!

Its horses not tapwater you’re talking about.

Cold blood comes from the German Kaltblutigkeit which though literally translated to English as cold blood actually means calmness and stolidness.

Because of their overall size and large muscles, work horses tend to be sluggish and slow to react.

Coldbloods are the work horses. The horses which provided heavy transport and power in agriculture and industry.

Irish Drafts, Hackneys and some others mentioned are not cold bloods. Never have been and never will be.

Rather they’re light harness horses and coach horses.

Quite different from Shires. As in totally and utterly.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=Roan;3127645]
That’s how I took it at first as well, until canticle read it as it was actually written. I had to go back and reread her statement.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I did read it as it was written. I reread it, and I can see how it could have been meant either way.

I wonder just how many people have the “FEI or bust” mentality. I think this mindset is unfair to ANY breed or type of horse. But this type of person wouldn’t choose a draft horse in the first place, would she? Additionally, I suspect only a tiny fraction of dressage riders buy a horse for the purpose of wringing every last bit of talent and capability out of their mounts before ditching it and moving on. Yes, there are some high-profile people who might fall into this category, but where are the scores of non-traditional breeds who are being mistreated merely by being subjected to dressage? If anything, I think the more popular dressage breeds are more likely to be broken down. First of all, the sad fact is that overbreeding and misbreeding occurs whenever something becomes too popular. And the type of overly ambitious person who doesn’t care about the horse is going to gravitate towards the more popular type of horse because she thinks that is going to win. In a perverse way, the more obscure breeds might benefit from dressage more, since their riders might have a greater tendency to be doing it for the right reasons? :eek:

[Bluesy]

I haven’t really read all of the posts in this thread, so my post is more directed to the original poster. Keep in mind I am not a Dressage rider, although I think Dressage is (or should be) the basis of all riding.

If you are looking for an upper level dressage horse, look for a horse with conformation suited for upper level Dressage:
http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/conformation101-dressage.pdf
http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/Conformation-Dressage.pdf

Many Draft horses are suited for pulling - low point of shoulder, heavy on the forehand/pillar of support, etc. However, I’m sure, as always, there are exceptions to the general rule.

[Equibrit]

@canticle;3127610

Do you honestly believe that anyone who dares to put a saddle on their drafts is risking their horse’s health? That is ridiculous.

Clearly that is a ridiculous statement to make; it was not I that made it, however.
I stand by the statement that I made, which bears no resemblance to the above.

I’ll make it a little easier for you - how about that? Move a couple of words ?

In dressage, if you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels.

[Roan]

[QUOTE=Bluesy;3127689]
. . .If you are looking for an upper level dressage horse, look for a horse with conformation suited for upper level Dressage. . .[/QUOTE]

[tongue in cheek]

Or, save yourself a lot of time and trouble and just look for a hairy, baroque horse :yes:

[/tongue in cheek]

Eileen

[canticle]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;3127690]
In dressage, if you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels.[/QUOTE]
This holds true for any type of horse though! :eek:

[lewin]

For the people who are saying they will break down I am sure you have lots of scientific evidence, studies done on percentage of draft horses who break down, etc. to back that up?!

Especially since all the people who work with the breeds, compete them, and ride them have told you that they have never had problems. My mare is 9 and completely sound. Unlike many well-bred warmbloods I have met. Why should 1500 lbs on top of 9" of cannon bone go unsound faster than 1500 lbs on top of 7" of cannon bone and MUCH smaller feet. They are not downhill, slow, and were certainly not bred to pull heavy loads within the last 40 years. (8 horses attached to a 1000lb wagon doesn’t exactly require pulling ability)

When draft breeds started to come back into popularity the first comments were “They won’t be able to canter.”
Then when people started cantering them it became “They will never be suitable for sporthorse work”
And now that people are competing them in the sporthorse disciplines it is “They will go lame.”

Completely without research those comments do come across as mean-spirited.

I have a full percheron that is doing very well. We did hunters until last year and at age 9 we started dressage training. Since November we have gone from not even training level to solid 1st, learning second and third level movements. She has a flying change, shoulder-in, haunches-in, leg-yelds, medium gaits, walk-canter-walk (downward still needs a little work), walk pirouettes, and we are about a month away (in both my trainers and my opinion) from a solid collected canter. I have been the only one doing the riding and have been learning at the same time.

Not exactly doing it the hard way. And she is an easy horse to ride. She tries her heart out, learns extremely quickly, is very forward, and is very sweet. I enjoy riding her more than I have enjoyed any other horse and that includes upper-level warmbloods and some PRE’s. She was bold to the fences and the easiest horse to jump as a hunter, and is sensitive and forward as a dressage horse. In addition to that she is beautiful.

And Cottonwood Flame was full Percheron and did Grand Prix. He did not break down.

[Ambrey]

@Donella;3127620

Some people just have to learn the hard way and it’s unfortunate for the horse. If FEI is your goal I would start with a horse that has the conformation that will give him at least the basis to do what you will ask him to do.

Well, aren’t you also talking about apples and oranges with draft horses? A drafty type Clyde and a modern type Percheron are just not the same kind of animal at all. I guess I don’t understand why the excitement to lump all drafts into the same category.

I also think “going to FEI” and “beating Anky at the olympics” are not the same thing.

[Donella]

I have a fairly good understanding of equine biomechanics and the biomechanics of collection as well (we have a student of Dr Claytons that works at the stable and does therapy on the horses and she has given many clinics). Dr Clayton has done alot of well respected research in this area and in dressage in particular. She did an article in one of the more recent dressage todays stating the importance of particular conformation in regards to collection. None of the examples or descriptions fit with that of a draft horse.
If you notice in HorseSport magazine there are monthly articles devoted to specific conformational issues, almost always the hind leg apparatus. Sport horse registries are guided by conformational ideals for particular sports at which the said breed is aimed at. Conformation is a big deal and it is what sets one breed apart from the other.
But clearly some of you will never agree that form has anything to do with function. That is your choice and that is a mistake in my mind but thats fine.

Nobody is trying to pick on anyone or any breed of horse. If someone said to me “hanoverians are uphill horses that are very tall, tend to have large bone and heads and are not super sensitive” therefor they would not suit cattle cutting or team penning classes, I would not be in the least offended. That is how they are…it just is the way it is. All breeds are specialists in something…but that same conformation that makes them great for one thing often hinders them at another sport that requires something different.

Anyways…I feel like I am repeating myself here…

[canticle]

[QUOTE=lewin;3127937]
When draft breeds started to come back into popularity the first comments were “They won’t be able to canter.”
Then when people started cantering them it became “They will never be suitable for sporthorse work”
And now that people are competing them in the sporthorse disciplines it is “They will go lame.”[/QUOTE]
Hah you’re exactly right! Funny how that happens! :lol:

[Bravestrom]

Well I am going to have to have some issues here:

quoted -Donella
She did an article in one of the more recent dressage todays stating the importance of particular conformation in regards to collection. None of the examples or descriptions fit with that of a draft horse.
Yes, but did she specifically exclude drafts or even consider them.
If you notice in HorseSport magazine there are monthly articles devoted to specific conformational issues, almost always the hind leg apparatus. Sport horse registries are guided by conformational ideals for particular sports at which the said breed is aimed at. Conformation is a big deal and it is what sets one breed apart from the other.

I have four draft cross mares that are all foundation sport horse approved. One of my fillies out of one of my mares scored 86% in the Canadian Sport Horse Foal Championships.

Nobody is trying to pick on anyone or any breed of horse. If someone said to me “hanoverians are uphill horses that are very tall, tend to have large bone and heads and are not super sensitive” therefor they would not suit cattle cutting or team penning classes, I would not be in the least offended.

Yes, but if someone whated to do team penning or cattle cutting with a hanovarian, what right does anyone have to tell that person not to try it

If I want to do dressage, event or whatever else with my horse, baring anything dangerous - I certainly should be able to and what you should do is wish me luck not chastise the decision.

[NoDQhere]

It is absolutly fine and dandy to do Dressage (or whatever) with whatever breed (or non-breed) of horse you have and love. Get after it. But don’t be carrying on then about the Warmblood conspiracy and us Warmblood people won’t get our knickers in a twist trying to explain why the Warmblood got a better score.

[lewin]

Breed standard from the Shire Horse Association.

Hindquarters: Long and sweeping, wide and full of muscle; well let down toward the thighs.

Hind legs: Hocks should be clean, broad, deep, flat and wide when viewed broad-side; set at the correct angle for leverage, and in line with the hind·quarters. Should be of heavy bone; “puffy” and “sickle” hocks to be avoided. The leg should be clean cut, hard, and clear of short cannon bone.

Pastern: Fairly long and sloped at about 45-degree angle.

Feet: Moderately deep and wide at the heels; coronets open

Ideal Hind-end from the American Trakehner Website:

Ideal Hindquarters:

a broad pelvis;
muscular thighs;
stifle caps pointing out;
muscular gaskins;
hocks broad and angular, from front and side; rear surfaces equally broad and lying below the points of the hocks; clean and dry with no puffiness;
hind cannon bones attached in the center below the hocks; hind pastern angle 40-45°;
open heels, substantial feet, regular hooves, evenly worn.

I have read a lot of Clayton’s work as well. And there is nothing there that a well-conformed draft horse lacks. Sloping shoulders, good length of the femur, and good sized feet. And from the summer 2000 USDF connections article: “both Dr. Clayton and Mr. Schumacher agreed that it is easy to pick apart any horse’s conformation. But the overall picture derived from structure, flexibility, and temperament, together with his balance and how fluidly he moves, all play important roles in determining whether the horse you’re looking at can do the job you want him to.”

[Donella]

Yes, but did she specifically exclude drafts or even consider them.

She didn’t discuss breeds, she discussed conformation. And the conformation she discussed as being suited to collected work is about the opposite of what draft horses posses…generally speaking. So no…she didn’t say “dont buy a draft horse” she just said “in order for a horse to be able to lift in front, sit behind…horse needs A, B , C ect”. I am sure somewhere out there there is a draft that is built in a way that may sustain this kind of work…it just wouldn’t be close to the norm.

I have four draft cross mares that are all foundation sport horse approved. One of my fillies out of one of my mares scored 86% in the Canadian Sport Horse Foal Championships

I still don’t see draft cross as the same as drafts. I have had a number of drafts crosses and they are not the equivalent of their full draft parent…definately more athletic from my experience. On the other hand (and no offense, just my personal opinion), the CSH is hardly the gold standard in dressage or sport horse breeding. I don’t see them anywhere on the top ten list according to WFSHB so their methods are not really tried, tested and true.

Yes, but if someone whated to do team penning or cattle cutting with a hanovarian, what right does anyone have to tell that person not to try it

Of course not, but if I went to a cutting BB and asked people if my Hano could cut it for serious cutting work, my guess is that people are going to give me an honest answer or they will at least assume that I want one. And God knows, I wouldn’t be offended if they said the horse wouldn’t make it past intro level or that he/she wouldn’t stay sound. If you ask for an opinion you can’t be mad just because the reality of the situation hurts your feelings.

And while anyone can do whatever they want, I think it is sad when people try to make a horse do a job it is so not cut out for. It doesn’t look like its supposed to and usually the horse dislikes his work because he cant give enough/owner expects too much. I saw a combo like this a few weekends ago. I don’t see the point of this.

Have fun,take the horse as far as he can COMFORTABLY go and see what happens. Nobody said it wont happen, its just very unlikely.

[Ambrey]

@NoDQhere;3128190

It is absolutly fine and dandy to do Dressage (or whatever) with whatever breed (or non-breed) of horse you have and love. Get after it. But don’t be carrying on then about the Warmblood conspiracy and us Warmblood people won’t get our knickers in a twist trying to explain why the Warmblood got a better score.

Well, if there isn’t actually a warmblood conspiracy/bias, this would make sense. If the warmbloods are performing better and getting better scores on gaits, then there’s no conspiracy.

I believe the conspiracy people complain about is the one in which a warmblood gets a higher score than the non-warmblood for the same quality. “Breeding is as breeding does” as Forrest Gump might say, so if the Warmbloods are earning their higher scores more power to them. I hate to think that off breeds are being looked down upon because they are not the “right” breed even if they are doing good work (but as we can see here, it happens).

[Bobthehorse]

[QUOTE=AKB;3125345]
My daughter took her Irish Draught through 4th level. Irish Draught’s often score well in dressage through PSG, although I have not known any at Grand Prix. Kim Severson has an Irish Draught cross (Tipperary Liadham?sp) who is scoring very well in eventing dressage. Gina Miles scores well with McKinleigh, an Irish Draught Sport horse, who events at advanced. [/QUOTE]

RIDs and IDSH’s are not comparable to most draft breeds (not in some sort of quality battle, just apples and oranges). RIDs are a riding breed, of more riding horse confo, most other drafts are not. And the IDSHs eventing at the ULs are mostly TB in breeding, at least half. Just that a successful horse with a fraction of draft blood doesnt really prove that a full draft can have the same success. There are plenty of successful part-drafts, but they are not the same as full-drafts.

I dont think most purebred Shires have the build to be a UL horse, nor do most Friesians either, actually. But that doesnt mean he wouldnt be a fun lower to mid level horse.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=Donella;3128204]
And while anyone can do whatever they want, I think it is sad when people try to make a horse do a job it is so not cut out for. It doesn’t look like its supposed to and usually the horse dislikes his work because he cant give enough/owner expects too much. I saw a combo like this a few weekends ago. I don’t see the point of this.[/QUOTE]
Where are the scores of horses who are being asked to do a job they aren’t cut out for? I just don’t see this happening. I assure you that WBs don’t feel embarrassed if forced to wear a western saddle. QHs don’t feel self-conscious when jumping. I do think there’s a lot of anthropomorphism going on here. Just because you aren’t used to seeing a type of horse do something doesn’t mean it is unfair to the horse. Horses are a lot more versatile than we give them credit for, and fundamentally correct conformation will lend itself to a variety of athletic activities. I’m not talking about world champion level. I’m talking about the ability to have fun doing more than one thing with your horse. It’s good for both horse and rider.

[Bluesy]

Non Traditional Breeds…

Here is 3 time Olympic gold medalist Absent - an Akhal Teke: http://www.avatstud.com/images/AbsentConf.jpg

I believe he scored the highest mark ever awarded for Olympic dressage.

Lewin: those comformation points don’t really mean much to me. I admit, still have a lot to learn, but after clinic-ing with Judy Wardrope last year ( http://www.jwequine.com/ ) I’ve changed the way I look at conformation.

Those attributes that you’ve listed off don’t mention bone structure, i.e. L.S. placement, pillar of support etc., which I have learned (and still am learning - I am by no means a guru) is the most important when selecting a certain horse for a particular discipline. Sure muscling is great - but I believe what lies beneath is most important.

The thing is many (NOT all) draft horses are built heavy on the front end - they were bred to pull. In my opinion it would be very difficult to collect a horse built like that - and I can’t imagine the horse would be very happy with being forced to do something it was not built for. Just like I am not built to be a gymnast - sure I could do some do some basic stuff - but if someone forced me to become a competitor at a top competition - boy they would hear about it! :winkgrin:

Not saying all drafts are in/uncapable of it - if they have the correct conformation - they will last, and be fairly happy with their job. If not…well you get the idea.

Many warmbloods do excel at jumping/dressage - but low and behold, guess what - they were bred for it.

Donella - I completely agree with you! I will look up Dr. Clayton, she sounds really knowlegable.

[lewin]

[QUOTE=Bluesy;3128474]
The thing is many (NOT all) draft horses are built heavy on the front end - they were bred to pull [/QUOTE]

But they aren’t really bred to pull. Drafts spent their first century as riding horses, their next few as carriage/light coach/ diligence horses, heavy pulling horses, and then for the last century the breed has split again into the heavy work lines bred for size, strength, and temperament and the hitch horses for knee action, conformation, and upheadedness. Very little of their breeding was for heavy pulling. Percherons were the breed of choice for pulling the fire-wagons. Now that’s heart and athleticism. I wouldn’t recommend the heavier lines for sport work. But the horse the OP is talking about sounds like one of the modern hitch horses: Most likely quite suitable for dressage. Athletic, uphill, forward, and with a good mind.

L.S. placement, pillar of support etc., which I have learned (and still am learning - I am by no means a guru) is the most important when selecting a certain horse for a particular discipline.

The descriptions very much describe bone structure. Pastern angle, hock angles, depth and width of the pelvis. I think they are just different terms than you learned. (Pillar of support is not a part of a horse.) But I posted those to show that the ideal hind-end of a Shire was comparable to the ideal hind-end of a Trakehener. Will the horse be heavier…Damn straight. Is the trakehner more likely to succeed in dressage? Yep. Is a draft more likely to go lame than reach the upper levels? NO

[Bluesy]

Okay, so I admit I was wrong about drafts being bred to pull- I guess the type of draft I was thinking of was more of the percheron type.

I am very much aware that the pillar of support is not a part of the horse, my thinking (which may be wrong) was the general structure/line of the forelimb.

I understand that pelvis depth would be somewhat akin to ilium/femur angles and length, however; to me lower leg/hock angles are not as important (unless by serious deviation) as say, good LS, stifle placement, point of shoulder -well you get the idea. To illustrate my point, Wardrope had a shown us a picture of a (I think top?) dressage horse who was considerably over at the knee, though was around 20, still competing or had just finished competing, and was still sound as a dollar. Because this horse was correct in many other places, the front end issue was not a problem.

I don’t recall saying anything about a draft going lame that reaching upper levels…I did mention they’d be uncomfortable and not happy (if not conformed for that duty)

Not all Trakehners are built for upper level dressage horses, so it is possible a draft conformed for the job might very well reach FEI while the Trakehner who was built for jumping may not :winkgrin: