draft horse/dressage

[MusicMare]

@lewin;3127937

When draft breeds started to come back into popularity the first comments were “They won’t be able to canter.”
Then when people started cantering them it became “They will never be suitable for sporthorse work”

:lol::lol: Wow. The idea of drafts not being able to canter just about made me spew coffee all over the computer screen. I’m so glad opinions have moved past that. I watched a full percheron run circles around warmbloods this weekend. The drafts attitude on a trail ride and in the ring appeals to some, not all. As for abilities, my draft is doing well in dressage lessons, but will never excel. She is not built for advanced levels, but the balance work is helping both of us to connect better.

Back to the OP’s question, many have said it better than me, some drafts will do very well where as others (like mine) are just not built for upper level. And… (forgot who said it) this applies to all breeds.

MM

[tarragon]

@Donella;3126858

This may sound breedist or whatever, I call it living in reality. Breeds that were bred for this sort of work are most often the ones found at the top. This isnt some conspiracy as most of us on this board like to beleive. Form = Function…I am true beleiver in it because the proof is in the pudding. There are always exceptions…we are talking generalities

I completely agree with this poster’s statement. There is an old breeder’s saying that what is bred in, you don’t have to train in.

I own and compete a Shire/TB mare. There are picture of her in my signature if you are interested. I love my mare, and she’s a wonderful girl, but she has her limitations. She is schooling 2nd/3rd level, and will be showing at 2nd next weekend. She’s had decent scores, in the mid to high 60s at training and 1st. In the past she showed in the Low and High Amateurs in the jumper ring, and was in the ribbons at shows like Ocala, Culpepper, Upperville, etc.

On the plus side, she has a wonderful, wonderful temperament. Nothing spooks her, she is exceptionally well-mannered and she never does anything stupid, all of which make me a much braver rider. Unlike a lot of draft crosses I’ve seen, she has a super canter. Her lateral work is pretty good. She is very sound and has the best feet of any horse I’ve ever known. At age 18, she has just started on a maintenance program. Oh, and she has the best tail ever

On the negative side, she stands out behind naturally. She has to work twice as hard to really “sit” behind. Not to say she can’t do it, but it is hard work for her. Her trot is limited and she has little to no suspension. “Forward” does not come easily to her, neither does “through” and her main resistance is to suck back, really suck back- sometimes it’s like riding with the parking brake on. Her gaits really aren’t fancy enough for her to be really competitive, and to get even decent scores we have to be very, very correct.

I really think the draft crosses can be wonderful amateur horses, especially for the amateur that wants an “all-around” sort of horse. My mare is lovely on trails, and could easily do a local jumper show one weekend, event or foxhunt the next, and a dressage show the next. I do think they are limited in their potential for the upper levels, simply because they aren’t built and bred for it. A horse with naturally good gaits, that has a really good hind end and that lifts its back and rounds its topline naturally is starting off so many steps ahead and will find moving up through the levels so much easier.

[Bravestrom]

[QUOTE=canticle;3128466]
Where are the scores of horses who are being asked to do a job they aren’t cut out for? I just don’t see this happening. I assure you that WBs don’t feel embarrassed if forced to wear a western saddle. QHs don’t feel self-conscious when jumping. I do think there’s a lot of anthropomorphism going on here. Just because you aren’t used to seeing a type of horse do something doesn’t mean it is unfair to the horse. Horses are a lot more versatile than we give them credit for, and fundamentally correct conformation will lend itself to a variety of athletic activities. I’m not talking about world champion level. I’m talking about the ability to have fun doing more than one thing with your horse. It’s good for both horse and rider.[/QUOTE]

I could not have said that better - my clyde/hackney gelding was bred as a commercial horse - used to pull coaches - he hated it - although he was bred for it. As a matter of fact the reason I have him is because he hated it.

He loves dressage - he collects, loves doing lateral movements, loves jumping and loves cross country. He really loves dressage - has learned to do a collected canter - while it took a bit to get him off the forehand his passage is really good. we also have a ball just hacking.

[JSwan]

For the OP:

Yes, a draft/draft cross can “do” the upper levels. Meaning, they are generally capable of performing the upper level movements, and are lovely, wonderful horses.

However, if you’re asking if a draft/draft cross can be competitive at the upper levels, I’d have to say No. Not generally. Not as a rule.

The reasons why don’t really matter. I’ve found that people who ask this question are lower level riders (I’m one too so it isn’t an insult).

If you want to reach the upper levels - buy a horse that has been there and can teach you. Or, if you are an upper level rider, buy a horse that you can train, and that is of a breed that is bred for the work and the judges want to see.

Otherwise, I think you’re setting yourself up for failure and frustration. I’ve seen plenty of crosses event, hunt, do dressage - and they are all super horses, friendly, and SOUND well into old age. The notions their legs fall off if you ask them to gallop is plain nonsense.

But - for the high level performance horse - if that’s truly what you want to pursue - buy/lease a schoolmaster and learn the ropes.

Best of luck to you.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=canticle;3128466]
Where are the scores of horses who are being asked to do a job they aren’t cut out for? I just don’t see this happening. I assure you that WBs don’t feel embarrassed if forced to wear a western saddle. QHs don’t feel self-conscious when jumping. I do think there’s a lot of anthropomorphism going on here. Just because you aren’t used to seeing a type of horse do something doesn’t mean it is unfair to the horse. Horses are a lot more versatile than we give them credit for, and fundamentally correct conformation will lend itself to a variety of athletic activities. I’m not talking about world champion level. I’m talking about the ability to have fun doing more than one thing with your horse. It’s good for both horse and rider.[/QUOTE]

As usual, you have totally missed the point. No one is saying that horses are EMBARASSED to do something they are not bred to do. How silly. What is being said is that forcing a horse to do a job his conformation is unsuited for can cause him HARM

[FancyFree]

Great post J Swan. You say it all right there, clearly and concisely.

[canticle]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3128820]
As usual, you have totally missed the point. No one is saying that horses are EMBARASSED to do something they are not bred to do. How silly. What is being said is that forcing a horse to do a job his conformation is unsuited for can cause him HARM[/QUOTE]
Why on earth would safe and humane training harm a healthy and sound horse? On the contrary, I believe far more harm is done by not engaging in a variety of activities.

It’s an uphill battle to convince happy horseowners that they’ve made a mistake. Is that why some have resorted to scare tactics?

[Ambrey]

@NoDQhere;3128820

As usual, you have totally missed the point. No one is saying that horses are EMBARASSED to do something they are not bred to do. How silly. What is being said is that forcing a horse to do a job his conformation is unsuited for can cause him HARM

And your position that draft horse conformation, in general, predisposes them to harm has not been proven. So all of the little criticisms set out by you and others, about how SAD it is when people push their poor horses to do things they hate/aren’t bred for/aren’t built for are just based on your own biases, not on knowledge.

If the poster is looking for a horse to be competitive at FEI levels, it will take a lot more shopping to find one, either WB or off-breed. But without seeing this particular horse, nobody can tell her how far this horse can go. A bunch of generalizations about drafts, which then bleed to draft crosses and all off breeds and become a “silly rabbit, FEI is for warmbloods” rant, aren’t helpful.

[Lambie_Boat]

tarragon posted a very honest response above. Her horse sounds exactly like mine, they seem to be at the same place I was with my Shire/TB mare. These are great horses, very versatile and fun, solid, great FEET, a leg in each corner, wonderful temperaments. Tarragon and I had experience and we both had the exact same things to say. I loved that mare more than words can describe and don’t think I’ll find another of that caliber.

but Grand Prix. no

[Bobthehorse]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3128404]
Well, if there isn’t actually a warmblood conspiracy/bias, this would make sense. If the warmbloods are performing better and getting better scores on gaits, then there’s no conspiracy.

I believe the conspiracy people complain about is the one in which a warmblood gets a higher score than the non-warmblood for the same quality. “Breeding is as breeding does” as Forrest Gump might say, so if the Warmbloods are earning their higher scores more power to them. I hate to think that off breeds are being looked down upon because they are not the “right” breed even if they are doing good work (but as we can see here, it happens).[/QUOTE]

You know, there isnt a subtitle while youre riding that says the horses breed. Often times you cant tell a horses breed just by looking at them. And you surely cant tell how expensive they are, or their specific bloodlines. So I really dont see how there is such a big conspiracy.

I hear people say this about hunters too, that you only win if you have money…but the judges have no idea how much money you have as your riding around the ring.

[MyReality]

For those who fought against the big tidal wave, and try to talk about the sensibility and science of breeding, and asking the horse to do the right job, thank you.

And I HAVE a draft cross. AND I KNOW she cannot do upper level work, but that is not the reason I bought her. JSwan hit the nail on the head, if you have to ask, you probably are not an upper level rider looking for prospect, then you may as well buy any reasonable athletic horse, including this draft cross.

You don’t whip any draft out and start working him in dressage. Breeders like prodomus, they actively breed athleticism into the mix, while retaining the good nature and quietness of a good draft cross. That’s why you breed to Rio, right? You wouldn’t breed back to a another heavy set draft. That’s what I have been saying all this time, including some TB discussion of the same nature. If you want a breed to succeed in a sport, you want to keep improving the characteristics for a sport, while retaining traits true to the breed. If you go around saying, any horse can do anything, that breed or line will never be successful.

Every breed has a market. I don’t think draft crosses are ever in the market for upper level dressage. So what? If they are, it’s a totally different ball game and probably you won’t be half as successful. Why put yourself in a bad spot?

I find almost all draft crosses’ canter slow to develop. Even very athletic ones… at 6 or 7, they still struggle with the canter. So start late, slow and easy, lots of ground work. If a draft cross is born with a good light canter, he is probably a good purchase.

Draft crosses also tend to be laterally stiff. You need to develop that awareness of your leg right from the beginning. Lots of work on suppling. But most of them have a very flexible neck, which could drive you crazy… so it’s the age old throughness that you need to work on, not unlike any other breed really. Mine can throw a few good bucks, although she never meant to dump you, so very important to make them go forward.

Other than that, they are wonderful movers, very athletic, a sweetheart to be around, quite low maintainance (hard to fit saddles though), very sensible type of horse and generally easy to ride, easy to sit to. They tend to be very ‘textbook’… ride forward into hand, inside leg to outside hand, then they are ‘there’, i.e. uncomplicated. (My TB needs more special techniques and sensitivity.) I mean as a ammie, what more could you ask for really?

[FancyFree]

“Warmblood conspiracy” Now I’ve heard everything. :lol:

[Ambrey]

[quote=![](yReality;3129097]

I find almost all draft crosses’ canter slow to develop. Even very athletic ones… at 6 or 7, they still struggle with the canter. So start late, slow and easy, lots of ground work. If a draft cross is born with a good light canter, he is probably a good purchase.

Draft crosses also tend to be laterally stiff. You need to develop that awareness of your leg right from the beginning. Lots of work on suppling. But most of them have a very flexible neck, which could drive you crazy… so it’s the age old throughness that you need to work on, not unlike any other breed really. Mine can throw a few good bucks, although she never meant to dump you, so very important to make them go forward.
[/quote]

Laterally stiff and struggling to canter don’t really describe my guy either. We have had to work on the canter, but he’s only 7 and it’s coming along fine. He loffs the laterals- he’s been in full training since January, and with all of the rain he has maybe 30-40 rides, and has gotten SI,HI,and leg yield down in that time. He’s always been super sensitive to the leg.

And although I know Lewin has worked canter quite a bit with her horse, laterally stiff definitely is NOT a word to describe her purebred perch. That horse can bend like nobody’s business.

Now is my horse an upper level prospect? Totally depends on what “upper levels” means to you. I suspect a really talented rider could get him to FEI, because he’s super smart and full of try. I think his competetiveness at those levels would depend a lot on his rider. He’s not going to be a horse that coasts his 40+ mediocre rider to PSG, or even 4th. But as I said before, I couldn’t afford one of those- there are a couple at my barn, in the $50k-$70k range (made dressage horses). Too many zeroes for me. I’m looking forward to learning with him and getting as far as I can.

There are quite a few draft crosses competing in FEI (I noticed during a search of Cottonwood Flame that several of his progeny are doing I1/I2) and I suspect that as breeding improves we’ll be seeing them at GP (look at Courtney Frasier and Against All Odds, they prove it can be done!). I still think draft crosses are fabulous for those of us without olympic aspirations!

eta: These are pics of one of his training sessions, a couple of weeks ago.

[IMG]http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0063.jpg)
[IMG]http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/IMG_0068.jpg)

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3128957]
And your position that draft horse conformation, in general, predisposes them to harm has not been proven. So all of the little criticisms set out by you and others, about how SAD it is when people push their poor horses to do things they hate/aren’t bred for/aren’t built for are just based on your own biases, not on knowledge.

If the poster is looking for a horse to be competitive at FEI levels, it will take a lot more shopping to find one, either WB or off-breed. But without seeing this particular horse, nobody can tell her how far this horse can go. A bunch of generalizations about drafts, which then bleed to draft crosses and all off breeds and become a “silly rabbit, FEI is for warmbloods” rant, aren’t helpful.[/QUOTE]

Has it ever occured to you that “some” of us are basing our observations on experience? That maybe we have “been there, done that”? Like Donella said, no one would be offended if a cutting horse trainer said your Draft was unsuitable for cutting. Or that asking him to cut might actually cause him to hurt himself. But it is a major crime to even suggest that, just maybe, he might not be suitable for upper level Dressage. That is all anyone is saying. The OP did ask about upper level.

As far as the differences between Draft and Warmblood conformation, if a person can’t see it, there is nothing I or anyone else can say that will enable a person see the differences.

[Ambrey]

@NoDQhere;3129243

Has it ever occured to you that “some” of us are basing our observations on experience? That maybe we have “been there, done that”? Like Donella said, no one would be offended if a cutting horse trainer said your Draft was unsuitable for cutting. Or that asking him to cut might actually cause him to hurt himself. But it is a major crime to even suggest that, just maybe, he might not be suitable for upper level Dressage. That is all anyone is saying. The OP did ask about upper level.

How many draft horses have you trained for dressage? And how many were injured/broke down through proper use and training? I’d definitely like to hear about your experience in this area.

eta: My point here is NOT that drafts are as likely as dressage-bred WBs, or dressage-bred draft crosses for that matter, to succeed at upper levels. I think we can all agree that that’s not the case. But, the OP said she LIKED this Shire, and wanted to know if it was possible to get him to upper levels. I think the post that listed problem areas to look for is more helpful than just saying “ugh, drafts can’t do dressage, get a warmblood” followed by “if you get a draft and try to teach it to do dressage, you’ll hurt it.”

FWIW, my Perch x QH would probably make a great cutting horse, if he didn’t squash the cows in the process :lol:.

I don’t understand why WB fans have to be so discouraging to those who choose to go with off breeds or end up there by necessity. I’ve experienced it over and over, though. I have been told point blank that nobody should be breeding draft crosses, or any other cross meant to succeed as a sporthorse, because perfection has already been reached. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder!

[Bravestrom]

[QUOTE=MyReality;3129097]

You don’t whip any draft out and start working him in dressage. Breeders like prodomus, they actively breed athleticism into the mix, while retaining the good nature and quietness of a good draft cross. That’s why you breed to Rio, right? You wouldn’t breed back to a another heavy set draft.

you are right - I specifically looked for a draft cross that had qualities I wanted then looked for a stallion that would enhance her but maintain certain abilities and features - the rio filly is out of a tb/belgian mare and she has brought out what I wanted - size, bone and movement

I find almost all draft crosses’ canter slow to develop. Even very athletic ones… at 6 or 7, they still struggle with the canter. So start late, slow and easy, lots of ground work. If a draft cross is born with a good light canter, he is probably a good purchase.

this is very true - it does take later - because they take longer to mature too - my gelding grew until he was 7 - he is now 8 and has a beautiful light canter - my tb/belgian mare is 6 but is blessed with a light canter

Draft crosses also tend to be laterally stiff. You need to develop that awareness of your leg right from the beginning. Lots of work on suppling. But most of them have a very flexible neck, which could drive you crazy… so it’s the age old throughness that you need to work on, not unlike any other breed really. Mine can throw a few good bucks, although she never meant to dump you, so very important to make them go forward.

Other than that, they are wonderful movers, very athletic, a sweetheart to be around, quite low maintainance (hard to fit saddles though), very sensible type of horse and generally easy to ride, easy to sit to. They tend to be very ‘textbook’… ride forward into hand, inside leg to outside hand, then they are ‘there’, i.e. uncomplicated. (My TB needs more special techniques and sensitivity.) I mean as a ammie, what more could you ask for really?[/QUOTE]

Have to agree with a lot of what you say - the mind is a big thing with me - my clyde crosses have the best minds - smart, willing to please and incredibly sensible, brave and strong.

For us a big factor is the size - I am not small - 5’7" and my sons are both pushing 6’ and then some - they have started riding some of our crosses after only a month or two of ground work and been able to teach them when they are learning themselves.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3129266]
How many draft horses have you trained for dressage? And how many were injured/broke down through proper use and training? I’d definitely like to hear about your experience in this area.[/QUOTE]

Well, actually, a few. One we Evented at Novice Level. He got good Dressage scores, but could barely make the time x-country. We didn’t break him down because we had enough sense to realize his limitations. Had we kept pushing him, yes, he would have developed issues with soundness. Over the years I’ve known several people with Draft crosses. Nice horses but not upper level horses.

We actually have :eek: a Draft horse. He is a Belgian. 1900#, 17.2, chestnut with a flaxen mane. He’s PINK. A very cool horse, we love him to death. But he is not shaped to be a Dressage horse. The key here is proper use and training. Of course proper use and training won’t break a horse down:rolleyes:. But then, I’ve never broken a horse down. And I evented to Intermediate Level. Our Trakehner stallion competed through I-1 barefoot and to GP without hock injections or even supplements.

Why do you suppose this is??? Just maybe it is because, through experience and investing the time in learning and developing an eye for conformation and understanding form to function the horses have been suitable for the job asked of them???

[canticle]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3129243]
Has it ever occured to you that “some” of us are basing our observations on experience? That maybe we have “been there, done that”?[/QUOTE]
Maybe, just maybe, you’re not the only person who has “been there, done that.” There are a lot of experienced people who have come to the opposite conclusions as you. Why are you so convinced they are making a mistake? If everyone is happy, what is the problem?

Like Donella said, no one would be offended if a cutting horse trainer said your Draft was unsuitable for cutting. Or that asking him to cut might actually cause him to hurt himself. But it is a major crime to even suggest that, just maybe, he might not be suitable for upper level Dressage. That is all anyone is saying. The OP did ask about upper level.

With your logic, WBs are unsuitable for dressage as well, since so many are unsound (I’m glad your guy is an exception!). I do have to wonder what the appeal is of a discipline that is cruel, unfair, and dangerous to so many horses. Maybe someone could step in and legislate which breeds are allowed to compete in dressage? If the horse’s welfare is truly at stake, then why do we even allow “off-breeds”?

The ironic thing is that the “unsuitable” horses are doing just fine, while the “suitable” horses tend to be the ones more likely to struggle with soundness issues.

[Ambrey]

@NoDQhere;3129319

Well, actually, a few. One we Evented at Novice Level. He got good Dressage scores, but could barely make the time x-country. We didn’t break him down because we had enough sense to realize his limitations. Had we kept pushing him, yes, he would have developed issues with soundness. Over the years I’ve known several people with Draft crosses. Nice horses but not upper level horses.

So you’re not saying that drafts and crosses can’t do dressage. You’re saying that they are not all made for upper level dressage. I’ll agree with that. Most horses, even WBs, don’t make it to I2/GP.

Congrats on your Trak. I know a couple of horses soundly doing upper level work into their golden years. I couldn’t have afforded them as young prospects, for sure

[Equibrit]

@canticle;3128937

Why on earth would safe and humane training harm a healthy and sound horse? On the contrary, I believe far more harm is done by not engaging in a variety of activities.

It’s an uphill battle to convince happy horseowners that they’ve made a mistake. Is that why some have resorted to scare tactics?

AS USUAL YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISSED THE POINT!