draft horse/dressage

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=canticle;3129363]
Maybe, just maybe, you’re not the only person who has “been there, done that.” There are a lot of experienced people who have come to the opposite conclusions as you. Why are you so convinced they are making a mistake? If everyone is happy, what is the problem?

With your logic, WBs are unsuitable for dressage as well, since so many are unsound (I’m glad your guy is an exception!). I do have to wonder what the appeal is of a discipline that is cruel, unfair, and dangerous to so many horses. Maybe someone could step in and legislate which breeds are allowed to compete in dressage? If the horse’s welfare is truly at stake, then why do we even allow “off-breeds”?

The ironic thing is that the “unsuitable” horses are doing just fine, while the “suitable” horses tend to be the ones more likely to struggle with soundness issues.[/QUOTE]

Our guy is hardly the exception. There are many teenage Dressage horses that are sound. Go to some Dressage Shows, you will see them. We have a gal in our region who rides a 20+ Hanno at GP.

Dressage is hardly “cruel, dangerous and unfair”. We have many horses “doing” Dressage. All are sound and happy. But they also find the work do-able without struggling. I think you are a person who just likes to argue for arguments sake. All that has been said here is that forcing a horse to do something that his conformation isn’t suitable for could do him harm.

[MyReality]

prodomus, good point! I completely forgot to mention about the substance/size a draft cross provides… which is another reason I bought mine. My TB is pretty opinionated about weight (could be due to some injury. He happily carries me though so no real complaint there). I needed a horse that could carry a bigger rider.

We are discussing it the other day, the market is maturing for draft crosses right now for the ammies market. They are just light enough these days, but still sturdy… they are just athletic enough without being too difficult… yes they don’t usually make it to upper level, but they do show very well and give the owners few troubles at shows. The breeders are doing a great job. The resale market is very good too.

prodomus, could you give me some guidance as to what saddle I should look into. I find mine detest anything but Passier, but it’s a little out of our price range right now. What saddle do you use on your crosses?

[mishmash]

Athletes

Doing upper level dressage takes a good athlete-no matter the breed. I know of many athletic draft crosses out there who are extremely competitive. I ride a full Percheron who has more suspension that most horses I see at dressage shows-including the warmbloods. I will attach a link to some pix of us. What is limiting my boy?..his rider.
http://www.redhatriders.net/LindaPhifer.html
The pix are by Jen Kaiser. And yes, he is a registered Percheron-not a cross.

And peruse the website of Forrest Hill Farm if you want to see drafts and draft crosses jumping, doing dressage, and looking pretty competent at it.

www.forresthillfarm.com

[elctrnc]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;3127690]
I’ll make it a little easier for you - how about that? Move a couple of words ?

In dressage, if you are riding a draught type you are more likely to break it down than reach FEI levels.[/QUOTE]

equibrit, how about we change a “couple of words” too…

if you change “draught” to “warmblood,” you will also have a true statement. your statement says that, as a whole dressage-riding population, drafts are more likely to break down than make it to FEI. however, if you look at the entire population of warmbloods and then compare how many break down and then how many make it to FEI, there are going to be more that break down. same for any breed really just because of the small number that make it to FEI.

I love it when people try to be condescending, but then still don’t prove their point. :lol:

[Equibrit]

@elctrnc;3129574

I love it when people try to be condescending, but then still don’t prove their point. :lol:

I do not need to PROVE a point if I am expressing an opinion. Just trying to make it a little easier for you 40 watters!

[JSwan]

Oooo - ten points to Equibrit. :lol::lol:

[Donella]

The breed standards for the shire doesnt really indicate sport horse conformation. You don’t want stifles that point outwards…this is a draft chararistic. My friesian mare has this and it is not desireable. Secondly, there is no mention of LS placement which is HUGE, no mention of uphill or even level build. No mention of the relative lengths of the hind leg bones…Ie…drafts have a problem with short femurs…and this is a huge detriment to a dressage prospect. It also doesnt fix the issue of those MASSIVE forhands. That is ALOT of weight to lift onto the hind legs apparatus.

And canticle, your reasoning is flawed. The vast majority of horses at the upper level are warmbloods and iberian breeds therefor there is going to be a higher number of them needing maintenance ect. How many off breeds are actually up there? You cannot compare the numbers like that…its wrong statistically. Its like saying that there are more african american NBA players who have had knee replacement surgery compared to white NBA players so therefor white players must be more suited.

I have yet to meet a serious, well respected FEI trainer, classical or not who believes any horse can be a competative FEI horse and that conformation doesnt play a huge role. On the other hand, there are lots of these trainers who will ride unconventional breeds and train them right…I still don’t see them on the olympic teams…or even long listed for that matter or winning open USDF horse of the year awards (on drafts). You can yabber on all you want about how suited they are, but the proof is in the pudding, plain and simple!

[Ambrey]

@elctrnc;3129574

I love it when people try to be condescending, but then still don’t prove their point. :lol:

Because an opinion is not a fact, even if you try to convince people that it is. Without data to back it up, it’s just an opinion.

And the singular of data is not anecdote.

“My draft bred belgian is not built for dressage” does not translate into “no draft is built for dressage.”

“Many drafts don’t make it out of lower levels” does not logically precede “you’re more likely to break down a draft than get it to upper levels.”

“Warmbloods are bred for dressage” does not support the conclusion “one should not ride any other horse in dressage.”

It’s logic 101.

[Ambrey]

@Equibrit;3129758

I do not need to PROVE a point if I am expressing an opinion. Just trying to make it a little easier for you 40 watters!

The fact that you characterize those who disagree with your opinions (admittedly not backed up by data) as dim bulbs says something about the strength of your argument.

[Donella]

btw… I think that Cottonwood Flame looks lovely but he is also not your typical draft nor is he built like a shire (which is what the OP’s question was about). I am speaking in generalities here and one or two specimens of a breed to reach FEI is not convincing me that the breed as a whole is capable. I am not even sure there has been even more than one to reach FEI?

[Donella]

“Many drafts don’t make it out of lower levels” does not logically precede “you’re more likely to break down a draft than get it to upper levels.”

Next lesson in logic would be to ask the question “why”. Most likely it is not that draft horse dressage riders are inherently uninterested in going further with their horse, or that they are somehow way different from other dressage riders. The likely explanation is that the horse is not capable of doing what is requested at a certain piont…

[Equibrit]

@Ambrey;3129808

The fact that you characterize those who disagree with your opinions (admittedly not backed up by data) as dim bulbs says something about the strength of your argument.

I make my judgement based on their OPINIONS.

[Ambrey]

@Donella;3129795

I have yet to meet a serious, well respected FEI trainer, classical or not who believes any horse can be a competative FEI horse and that conformation doesnt play a huge role. On the other hand, there are lots of these trainers who will ride unconventional breeds and train them right…I still don’t see them on the olympic teams…or even long listed for that matter or winning open USDF horse of the year awards (on drafts). You can yabber on all you want about how suited they are, but the proof is in the pudding, plain and simple!

I don’t even understand what point people are trying to make here, honestly. Most of us are not shopping at the store that sells olympic prospects.

The OP said that she found a Shire she really liked and loved the idea of doing dressage with off breeds. I don’t recall her mentioning the olympics or HOY. She said “upper levels” which could mean anything from 4th to GP. She didn’t show a picture of the horse. Just asked whether it’s possible to do dressage with a draft.

I am acquainted with a couple of people who are shopping for good GP horses with competitive years ahead of them. One of them has a budget in the 6 figures. The other one has a budget slightly lower and had to give up on getting a currently competing horse in favor of a prospect. Neither of them will be looking at random drafts/draft crosses. Neither are they looking for a backyard bred warmblood. They are going to be looking at very high quality, well bred european warmbloods or iberians.

They are not having a ton of prospects drop in their laps, by the way. The really strong competitive high level horse might seem common when you’re hanging around dressage shows, but when you’re looking to buy one you find they are few and far between. And in high demand.

I think the point that people have been trying to make in favor of drafts is that they are not a homogeneous population. Some people have been breeding drafts that are more suited as sporthorses. If you look at the picture that mishmash posted, does that look like what pops into your head when you think “percheron?” Her horse looks a lot like Lewin’s percheron- not at all like a plow horse. And not 17.2hh and 1900 lbs either.

[Ambrey]

@Donella;3129830

Next lesson in logic would be to ask the question “why”. Most likely it is not that draft horse dressage riders are inherently uninterested in going further with their horse, or that they are somehow way different from other dressage riders. The likely explanation is that the horse is not capable of doing what is requested at a certain piont…

But there are drafts and draft crosses that have competed at GP. So they do exist. Just blowing off everyone who wants to try to bring a draft up the levels makes no sense.

eta: I don’t think Cottonwood Flame is atypical for a modern type Percheron. And I’ve never seen a Shire do upper levels, but I’d love to see someone try!

[Bravestrom]

[QUOTE=MyReality;3129502]
prodomus, good point! I completely forgot to mention about the substance/size a draft cross provides… which is another reason I bought mine. My TB is pretty opinionated about weight (could be due to some injury. He happily carries me though so no real complaint there). I needed a horse that could carry a bigger rider.

We are discussing it the other day, the market is maturing for draft crosses right now for the ammies market. They are just light enough these days, but still sturdy… they are just athletic enough without being too difficult… yes they don’t usually make it to upper level, but they do show very well and give the owners few troubles at shows. The breeders are doing a great job. The resale market is very good too.

prodomus, could you give me some guidance as to what saddle I should look into. I find mine detest anything but Passier, but it’s a little out of our price range right now. What saddle do you use on your crosses?[/QUOTE]

We have great success with the Stubben saddles - going with the wider width but not too long down the back - my older son is 6’2" and rides in a 19" saddle with longer flaps - one of his crosses has a short back while the other one has a longer back - yet both horses handle the saddle very well - the tough one was the short backed - we had a lot of issues with different saddles for her. He has both the roxanne dressage and the roxanne jumper - they were great - special orders at no extra charge. I also ride in a stubben.

You can see both his horses as well as some of our other draft crosses at

www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

There is a huge market for draft cross sport horses in australia.

by the way - if anyone is interested you can join our draft cross riders of ontario on facebook (don’t have to be from ontario) - just have to love drafts and draft crosses.

[Coreene]

@feisomeday;3128994

loved that mare more than words can describe and don’t think I’ll find another of that caliber.

Everyone who knew Savel loved her. What a wonderful mare she was. :sadsmile:

[Ambrey]

@Coreene;3129869

Everyone who knew Savel loved her. What a wonderful mare she was. :sadsmile:

But you love Smokey too, right? :winkgrin:

[Ambrey]

@prodomus;3129861

We have great success with the Stubben saddles - going with the wider width but not too long down the back - my older son is 6’2" and rides in a 19" saddle with longer flaps - one of his crosses has a short back while the other one has a longer back - yet both horses handle the saddle very well - the tough one was the short backed - we had a lot of issues with different saddles for her. He has both the roxanne dressage and the roxanne jumper - they were great - special orders at no extra charge. I also ride in a stubben.

Veering off topic, but fitting my guy was a nightmare. He is wider than Lewin’s purebred percheron by a good margin. The Wintec with the xw gullet was a no-go. The Duett with the 39 cm gullet was OK, but didn’t fit well down the back and was a bit too long. My current experiment is a Schleese Infinity that I had to trailer his sorry butt 30 miles to have fitted, resulting in much giggling and oohing by the fitter at his broadness :lol:.

[Coreene]

@Ambrey;3129873

But you love Smokey too, right? :winkgrin:

He’s a doll! And Lewin’s mare as well. Oliver was very hot for Savel (he would piaffe for her to show da love), and has a big thing for Lewin’s horse now, too. He’s all about the real women!

[canticle]

[QUOTE=Donella;3129795]
can yabber on all you want about how suited they are, but the proof is in the pudding, plain and simple![/QUOTE]
You are right, the proof is in the pudding. So why the desire to convince the countless, happy non-WB owners that they have made a big mistake? Why the desperate attempts to scare people into believing that their sound horses are on the verge of going lame because they dare to participate in the dangerous sport of dressage?

We’d ALL like to think that our horses are perfect, that our chosen breed is the best. And our horses ARE the best for us, or else we wouldn’t have chosen them! But it crosses the line from preference to fanatacism when you really start to believe it and can’t accept that others have done things differently. When you try to scare people into buying your preferred breed of horse.

You’re certainly right that the proof is in the pudding. And that’s precisely why people chose the horses they did.